Jenny Hicks So for the vendor we we are logistics and we are a sales engine to the integrator. We are the time saver. So if they needed to speak to every manufacturer that made up a system and they the time involved in that would be astronomical. And and there's no way that they could achieve the business levels that they do. 

We segment our business into technology categories so there is always a divisional head at any point that has enough knowledge across multiple brands that sit in the same product area. So they're a good starting point too. Compare your Logi to your Neat to your D10 to your Poly et cetera. 

Tom Arbuthnot Hi and welcome back to the Teams Insider Podcast. This week we are talking about the role distribution plays in our ecosystem. We have Jenny Hicks from Midwich. She takes us through her journey. Her experience of Teams Rooms coming into the space and an explanation of what distribution is what it does and where they add value in 2026. 

Really interesting conversation with Jenny. Thanks so much for her for taking the time and also many thanks to Logitech who are the sponsor of this podcast. Really appreciate all their support. On with the show. Hi rod. Welcome back to the podcast. Excited to do this recording. I've done some bits and pieces with Jenny in the past but I think it's the first time she's been on the podcast. 

So really excited to have her on. we're gonna get into Teams Rooms her experience distribution what distribution even does and and where the value is. And it's gonna all be explained I've been promised. So Jenny welcome to the show. 

Jenny Hicks Thank you for having me. 

Tom Arbuthnot Yeah. Excited to have you on and maybe we could start with you and your your your role and your experience and your history just to set some context. 

Jenny Hicks Sure. Yeah. So my current role is within Midwich UK but that's a very recent change. So as of this year I'm Technical Director for Midwich Limited. what that looks now is we. Our business has shifted a lot. We used to be quite heavily known for mainstream AV very little you see post pandemic. 

That changed quite a lot and I think. In in line with the changes we saw at in Infocom and ISE at those traditionally AV shows those big UC and IT vendors coming in. but we've also seen significant growth in our more technical product sales. Most of that through the AV over IP movement and quite a lot of it through live events as well. 

And the more interesting things that happen in digital signage. And that's where I grew up. So my role now. Is to look after our pre sales service levels for those sorts of products. and I also look after the AV over IP and networked AV vendors but I started everybody says it and I but I can't find another way to say it. 

I fell into the industry by accident. so I finished uni. And I needed a job that had a yearly salary not an hourly one to start doing all the grownup stuff and getting credit and things. and the first available job that was within driving distance of where I was living was at Sahara as a Purchasing Assistant who later became Clevertouch and still today are Clevertouch. 

. And so I worked there and I got a bit jealous of salespeople upstairs winning iPads and similar with their incentives and I asked if I could come and have a go. and that's how I ended up in AV sales and I just became fascinated with the product. So eventually an opportunity arose at True Colors which was the first acquisition Midwitch made ever. 

In fact True Colors were really high end. And display systems high end media. and it they would get involved in simulators for helicopters. And at the time that I joined they were working via an integrator on the Harry Potter Studio Tour. So it it really tickled my fancy away from. 

Educational AV I stayed there slightly more 

Tom Arbuthnot glamorous. Was it it's a classroom projectors into Harry Potter and helicopters. 

Jenny Hicks There comes a point with. Especially compulsory education. I love higher education and that gets more interesting every year. But with with the primary and the secondary schools particularly the primary schools in the UK there's only so much lugging a 50 inch touchscreen by yourself. 

Yeah. In the snow. and and when the questions that they ask are typically. How do I rub it out and start again? You go Ooh this this is really good tech and you're not gonna use it very well. and it it it's just the repetitive nature I guess. I and then I I kept getting a bit of exposure to cool AV and I wanted to go and work in in that sector and that that began my Midwich journey. 

so I climbed the ranks looking after more. Events and signage and media technical groups. And then when I moved into a global role I span across all categories and naturally at that time with the pandemic we started to pivot the business firmly into UC which is now our second largest category. 

so I was quite involved in. In that movement as well. Yeah. I think that's where 

Tom Arbuthnot our our paths first crossed started to cross by Netto. Yeah. exactly. Yeah yeah 

Jenny Hicks yeah. So after well actually it was just as the pandemic was setting in so we acquired Starin now Midwich US in 2019. And I think. 

Within the four or five weeks of us owning them everything was starting to happen in Europe with with COVID. So we asked them to divert their trip. that was originally planned to go to ISE. We we had pulled outta the show and told them to come to the UK with with a smaller group of people to meet us. 

and we went from there. So we we were really lucky actually because what the US team brought was that. Expert UC knowledge particularly around outfitting and full systems. And they had a at the time a great relationship with Zoom that turned into a great relationship with Teams further down the line. 

so they were there to guide us and help our European businesses break into that market at a time when everybody desperately needed it. So. I was doing that for quite a while looking after Market Intelligence and Technology Strategy for our full group. And this year I would say I'm back on the front line. 

so more heavily focused on the one country and getting back in front of customers just looking at our sales strategy because the market landscape changes. and it's it's good to. Follow it. 

Tom Arbuthnot Yeah. Yeah. There's there's there's some value to being are you going from Strat to doing stuff as well? 

It's I always struggle with that in my role which is a lot of a lot of talking and not so much doing anymore. And I'm really conscious of spending a lot of time with enterprise customers in my case in particular just to keep my finger on the pulse of what's actually the reality out there. 

Jenny Hicks And it's nice to put your name to stuff isn't it? I think it. It's it's fun to be in strategy but I think we're all lying if if when somebody else is getting that pat on the back and the well done for something you've definitely worked on with them the whole way through. Yeah. you you definitely you reach a point and it the mar the market's tough. 

it's been particularly tough in 2025. the UK had a a tough time in 2024 as well so I think there's definitely that feeling of. I haven't been in the trenches with with some of my colleagues for the last two years. Yeah. So this felt an opportunity to jump in there with them and and and yeah get get back get on on the front line and and 

Tom Arbuthnot that's awesome. 

Try and help. So I I really wanna get into your perspective on the the Teams Rooms journey and the UC journey. But first there's various people who listen into this pod lots of end end customer enterprise architects and service owners a bunch of people from industry as well. But can you just level set what what even is distribution and how does where does distribution play in? 

I'm a customer with Teams Rooms and there's OEMs that make stuff that that would be really great. 

Jenny Hicks So I think distribution was relatively or a lot less known in the platform space pre previously because software hasn't required that. distributor logistics stock holding element but from a hardware perspective distribution is has always been there. 

And we work a little bit differently in the commercial sector to the retail sector where people really stay in their lane. so it wouldn't be possible for the large brands to have full. Stock holding and availability in every country that they need to. Sales Teams of of significant size the cost would just be too high. 

So it makes a lot more sense for them to use distributors and fundamentally from a hardware perspective our job which sounds really simple so many people can't do it very well is to. Get a product or hold hold a product hold enough stock of that product at the right price in good condition handle it with care and get it to where it needs to go. 

Be that the integrator first or the end user. And this isn't it's not Amazon. It's it's not the same as as shipping quite lightweight lower cost things that can easily be replaced. These these are time critical. They must arrive when they were supposed to arrive and a lot of them are really big and really heavy and require a level of of specialism from from the courier. 

so fundamentally and you 

Tom Arbuthnot also you're also taking some weight off of the the. OEMs generalize the the supplier in the sense of they're not think about how many people deal with these Room systems to take the example I know best the vendor can't directly deal with every single partner that wants to do rooms. 

So you exactly. You take some of that weight off of that expertise and and that whole piece. So there's value for the OEM and then there's value for the yeah. Either the customer or the the the AV vendor because they can turn to you guys for not just logistics but also expertise and Yes stock and opinions and that stuff. 

Jenny Hicks And and that's where it because so so for the vendor we we are logistics and we are a sales engine to the integrator. We are the time saver. So if they needed to speak to every manufacturer that made up a system and they the time involved in that would be astronomical. And and there's no way that they could achieve the business levels that they do. 

We segment our business into technology categories so there is always a divisional head at any point that has enough knowledge across multiple brands that sit in the same product area. So they're a good starting point too. Compare your Logi to your Neat to your D10 to your Poly et cetera. 

Tom Arbuthnot Yeah. 

Jenny Hicks and also what. 

What we've got then is the we are offering them the ability to place single POs or far less purchase orders for projects on one supplier. That makes their whole tracking of of projects and deliveries and and so on much much easier. and and we've seen that. More and more over the last 10 years integrators shift away from holding their own stock of preferred brands and and into a real just leaning on the distributor to to hold that for them and and and calling it off when they need to. 

So and then I suppose the next layer is is for us to offer expertise and and our expertise really comes from the breadth of projects that we. facilitate. So whilst we might not be on site installing whilst we may not have the same technical knowledge that some of our customers do what we do have is this ideas library of what other people have done. 

And that's what a lot of our customers find particularly valuable. And I think that's what a lot I guess a lot of a lot of a lot of 

Tom Arbuthnot feedback as well if. No what went wrong? Loads. Exactly. loads. Yeah. Loads of this kit have go gone out and we've never heard anything back. 

That's good news. Mm hmm. Or actually we've had a few hundred of those go out and every one of the projects raises a question. That's a different different news. Yep. 

Jenny Hicks you can spot things that support and how. Easy it is to deal with certain manufacturer's support also product compatibility and who works well with each other. 

Yeah. all all of that you gradually gain that knowledge. and and again it it's that portfolio of of ideas and that's really quite relevant in the meeting space when they say oh we would it to work this but we are being told that's not a good idea. And nine times out of 10 we're able to say there was. 

An integrator that did that for such and such customer and it went well because or it went badly because yeah. And if it did go well they used X. and that that can then help help people to make those decisions. And. That's not to say that integrators don't have that and some of the large global integrators have a very similar level of portfolio but for the smaller guys no. 

They they quite often standardize on set kit and if somebody has a unique needs analysis that's throws them out if they can't make their room kit fit that. So we we are quite good for those people. and we to think that we're a pretty friendly bunch. and we are nice to deal with and efficient. 

Tom Arbuthnot Nice. Nice. And where does it fit? Microsoft have been talking a lot about distribution in the last 24 certainly 12 months in in respect to Teams rooms and Teams devices as a scaling mechanism. So where does it sit you working directly within customers versus you working with integrators? 

Jenny Hicks So we we work and I I guess sorry 

Tom Arbuthnot to clarify you and distribution as a whole I guess as well. 

Jenny Hicks So I think we are seeing a shift now towards distribution facilitating software licensing. and a big part of that again comes down to. Not siloing individual applications or or user licenses for your meeting spaces away from perhaps your digital signage across your estate or or others. 

So they they definitely now see the benefit in working with distribution to get that breadth across the the the the different areas that they don't currently cover. Not to say with Microsoft that they won't go into them at some point but what they. Certainly see is that the meeting space and UC in general is moving to a platform first sale. 

So nine times outta 10. When we are talking to any customer they know what they want to use. Hmm. And 90% of the time that is Microsoft Teams. so that's where we're starting from and and perhaps there's some more Microsoft add ons in there. From there the benefit of distribution to Microsoft and why they are so pro distribution is we then offer the choice. 

So whatever. Pick a mix of software suite they have pulled together we will have hardware options to facilitate that and everyone's gonna have different requirements. Some people it's all about the ability to have a a a a very quick turnaround in terms of a failure or a warranty. Others it's about. 

Operating system or certain types of hardware to make sure that they meet a set criteria across the board. some of them want to make sure that they haven't spent too much money 'cause they think that they'll need something new further down the line. And for a lot of people it's all about sustainability ESG credentials and and similar so. 

That dictates where we then go for the hardware. 

Tom Arbuthnot Yeah because it's Microsoft have quite a big set of OEMs now and it's increased a lot in the last couple of years as well. So you say the customer knows their Teams the integrated knows their Teams but that doesn't narrow it down in terms of hardware choice what hardware other than certified. 

now we're into which and why. And and that space moves really quickly as well. I follow well you can run 

Jenny Hicks out of hardware. Well yeah there can be stock shortages of hardware that doesn't really happen in the software world. Yeah. Jeanie can always generate a license key. so outside of service level issues you you're never gonna be outta stock. 

That's not the same for hardware and blindly. We really learned that lesson post pandemic. Mm. So I think that they were seeing the benefit of distribution in terms of outfitting their solutions at the start of the team's room. mass adoption. and as I say we we had a really good blueprint for that in the US that that then rolled out to Europe and then we went through the stock shortages and they saw the benefit of not aligning specifically to brands. 

Two distributors and those partners said that they were never missing a sale and they were always able to meet customer deadlines because there's a lot of choice out there. It's a really saturated hardware market now. thanks to the pandemic really and hybrid working. I think anyone that had the ability to make a hardware product that could sit in the meeting room did. 

So yeah everyone everyone's there's a lot. Always 

Tom Arbuthnot the running joke. Yeah 

Jenny Hicks yeah exactly. So I think. For software moving forward. The reason that we we have developed a a a software marketplace that at the moment is servicing just the dark region and a select group of of licensing vendors that we work with. 

The plan is for that to be rolled out globally. We've taken our time because. AV standalone softwares are a bit different to platforms so we just need to make sure that it works for both sides of the business. but this is something that the other distributors have been doing for Microsoft Licensing and other software licensing for some time. 

So we'll we'll join that group. Mm hmm. and we. Are offering ultimately the exact same thing that choice that single point of purchase and of management so that you would an integrator can go in have a look at an end user and detail what what's due for renewal. What what the spend was what when we think that the life cycle of that that product is maybe coming to a point where we should be having a conversation and so on. 

So we're following the software route as well but certainly from the hardware perspective Microsoft back distribution because of choice and because we will always be able to help. 

Tom Arbuthnot That's good to understand. And and how do how do you guys and and again distribution in general cope with the amount of options and you I guess AVs already already had a bunch of options. 

So is that par for the course or is it still quite challenging to keep up with how many options there are? 

Jenny Hicks It's it's challenging to keep up with the competitor landscape. I think that. if you if you look at some distributors there's been a history of some that have tried to brand collect and sell anything. 

And it it doesn't it doesn't always work actually. I for me distribution really has to be an extension of that manufacturer's sales team. Mm hmm. and if you have too many it's really hard to. Have some integrity when you're when you're out selling solutions. So we we are quite selective. We tend to opt for a good better best. 

And then and then it comes down to demand. If the demand feels really high then we have room for one or two. Two or three in the good. Yeah. And two or three in the better et cetera. but. It's not I don't think it's good practice to sell absolutely everything that's available. And where we struggle now is there's so many options that come from all different parts of the world. 

we've got a lot of camera manufacturers that creating video bars that really had focused on consumer. Photography and similar before that you where did you come from? Yeah. and then we have our own brand spreading. So if you look at the Panasonics and the Yealinks and similar and and they're known for a specific type of product but they will go and and make product that's outside of of that realm. 

I mean Barco did it and it turned out to be great for everyone with Clickshare but nobody. Would've ever dreamed that they would've come up with the the central product of a meeting room for that many years when they were known for display and projection. so it's it's tough. I think there is a lot to be said for known brand names with a a a likely longevity to them. 

Some of the the the newer. Entrance to the market and the cheapest options. You you don't know if they're going to be there to support you in three or four years time. So it you have to be a little cautious. Yeah 

Tom Arbuthnot and I think that's fair comment. and it's it's everybody you talking about this in the industry there there's there's a lot of demand but not enough to sustain everybody having a bar. 

And it's I I I only talk to customers rather than integrated. It's you you are placing a bet here on a strategy. And then and I know Teams rooms are. Similar in experience but you've still got warranty and support and OEM tooling other bits and pieces. it's not as you said very eloquently it's not just about price also about the environmentals the shipping the who who you're trusting in a partnership. 

Jenny Hicks Yep. And and when in hardware to a certain extent security features as well. Mm hmm. you there's. There's a lot that you can do in terms of your own network but that doesn't mean that there aren't loopholes into a product that you may not have been aware of. I think that's the beauty of Microsoft certification. 

So we we tend to really focus on that and we look at the strength of the partnership between the hardware manufacturer and the platforms that they are promoting to support. Because if you work with a hardware manufacturer. And then an update is going to mean that that renders your room unusable for a week whilst they figure things out because they're not using a native app it it it's not a great user experience. 

Tom Arbuthnot Yeah. 

Jenny Hicks so and whilst it may be very cost effective and it might work out fine it's much a a commercial display my. Television at home has been running for six years seven years. There's nothing wrong with it. I don't think it's any different to what it was when we first bought it. However if my TV breaks I can go and buy one From Curries or you? 

Tom Arbuthnot Yeah or we can 

Jenny Hicks wait a couple of days. Whereas if you need to. And deliver a presentation when it's mission critical especially something a lecture theater in higher ed and so on that that's not an option. Yeah. And you need to know it's it's 

Tom Arbuthnot on for 12 hours a day. It needs to be remotely managed. 

It needs to be secure it's on the network all that good stuff. Yeah. 

Jenny Hicks And they can't just go out and replace it with the next available thing. They need to know that the same thing is coming in. Yeah. within 24 hours and and so on. And and also that it was. Meant to be used in that way. So it's 

Tom Arbuthnot Microsoft has done a really good job job at banging the drum on that particularly in the early days of Skype and Blink and less so in Teams it's more cloud. 

It was there were there were lots of options that were web RTC their way in or doing different bits and pieces? Yeah. and and and there was a. Good amount of time there where I might I don't talk to any customers in enterprise who don't realize certification is just a baseline. 

Is that different in different parts of the market? I'm guessing as you get down to SMB and mid market are they less aware of what they need why it's different? 

Jenny Hicks It's it's different if they're using it for bring your own device. so and I think that's the. When when Teams was first really being widely adopted we saw a lot of people desperate not to have to pay for a a Teams Room license. 

And instead they'd set up single user accounts and and that would be how how it operated and so on and and gradually. They've found particularly in in enterprises where you've got some people are at the desktop and some are laptop but immediately you you need a room solution. but there's there definitely were times when. 

There were issues I won't name names but a particular hardware brand who actually came to market with a bar really early in comparison to others. But they had this the exact same issue that they had built their own application for the the control panel. And therefore every time there was an update and there were many in this period. 

Something would be rendered not working. Yeah. And then you're going back to the US for their their team. So I think in the bring your own device world there is still quite a lot of interest in the lower cost solutions. but no I think when it's a a Team's room it's it's. I mean the the white papers helpers you've only gotta have a look at Microsoft's own. 

yeah. It's all widely 

Tom Arbuthnot understood. You need to go certified. Yeah it's very 

Jenny Hicks clear. Please work with our certified and compatible products. and please have a a full Team's room license. Don't yeah 

Tom Arbuthnot yeah. 

Jenny Hicks Don't treat it. It's a meeting room. It's not a person. 

Tom Arbuthnot So let's go back to your your experience when you said pandemic and and then post pandemic. 

'cause this is how again my my world into AV came is suddenly Teams rooms were just invading AV and and mm hmm. And it very grew very very quickly. 

Jenny Hicks Yes. It was. It was nuts. So I I had the benefit of of pre pandemic. I'd worked for a few years initially with RadVision who were then acquired by Avaya who were a traditional video conferencing in that telepresence era. 

and then they af after that after they were acquired by Avaya we worked with Lifesize for a while. so. I'd been out trying to bang the drum of of Cloud VC for such a long time and I think we talked internally about the likely five plus years it was gonna take for this to be more widely adopted and properly used. 

and then it just. Had to happen. Mm. So we we were quite fortunate as a business in that we we were already rolling out Teams to enable our global communication. so so then with the pandemic which. We were ready. And it was just a case of switching it on for the more local users and and telling them how how to work with it. 

And I was in that camp in the early days of Zoom so much better. So I had both. and it it didn't take long before Teams was the most widely used. So we found in in that period of time. Every there was a a rush not so much immediately as the pandemic hit most of that rush was around webcams and desktop and enabling people to get home. 

But when they started to talk about the return to office there was a need to ena video enable the meeting rooms. And actually it felt there was a need to enable them as bring your own device because nobody had really standardized on one. So we still had some schools were very keen on Google Meet. 

. There was still a bit of WebEx out there from people that had been using it. We had some of the independents were still running or had been used for the early adopters. Yeah Zoom had a real strong foothold and and Teams was taking over. So what we were putting in was was a much lower value much less functionality and. 

After all of that happened we were very busy. I think we ran out of everything. I think everybody ran out of everything. and so you'd be switching brands and and what we were leading with and it was very. Buoyant time for the industry. We saw a real strong shift in that movement as well away from touchscreens in the meeting space to we don't care we don't plan to stand up we just need to be able to talk to the people that aren't in the room. 

so the meeting space became relevant to the standard display people as well and then the board started appearing. So we'd had the the the video bar won those early. Enablement areas and and all of the peripherals benefited as well. and then we had the return to office without that nervousness of oh it'll only be half the people and you can only have a certain number of people in meeting rooms. 

Now we were all coming back to the office full whack. 

Tom Arbuthnot Yeah. 

Jenny Hicks And that's when we saw the rise of the all in one. Now whether that was driven. By customer by vendor marketing or by integrators. My gut says by integrators it was about simplicity and how quick they could be because you already had so many people back in the office. 

The disruption of then going and installing kit meant that popping a single display on a wall. Or just adding a bar to underneath the screen that that seemed to be the preference. And and we watched it really shift to all in ones being the preference. And it there was nothing in between those. And a full divisible DSP required specialist full full full boardroom. 

and then. Then we went well this is great because in a few years time this will be refreshed and there'll be new features and so on. And that I would say is what hasn't happened. So we had that initial cheap and cheerful I'll take whatever you've got. I just need to be able to talk to my Teams. 

Followed by the all in one movement which really was as. Having that it and consumer influence I think that was unknown to AV. We've been very hands on physical instore as an industry and yeah 

Tom Arbuthnot it it took a lot of the complexity. I saw it from the customer side and it was a com a combination of motivations I saw which was the the a the AV deployment time. 

not just from a time and effort point of view but from a cost point of view. It's oh well I can put. All in ones on trollies and move them around. Or I can have it up on a wall in half a day. Yeah. And and also the the number of things to possibly go wrong was reduced because that you didn't have a different switcher and a different mic system and a different thing. 

It's oh well it is is what it is. I saw the same thing with dramatic with touch. we we had a podcast just recorded before this one that they deployed hundreds of rally ball 65. And they weren't using 'em for touch. They were just it was just all in one on the wall. But it happens to have touch. 

That's great. But that wasn't the mo the driver it was just all in one nature. 

Jenny Hicks Yeah I don't I don't think a lot of people do stand up. You get the occasional flamboyance old school trainer and similar and and obviously if there's a flip chart culture there might be some whiteboarding that they use. 

Mm hmm. But but really it's it's it's quite rare. And I but I I also think now the cost differential you may as well have touch because it's not really any you're no worse off for for having it there if you do need it. But we we definitely thought at the the end of of 2022 that come 2025 and with the Windows switch off and so on we would see this refresh and that people would be focused on the the importance of audio quality. 

I mean. And then during 2024 we we thought that even more because of Copilot and that adoption. And I'd say that that's the bit that hasn't happened. And it feels there's a few reasons. I think there's some waiting. Some of that is. Economical. yeah there's a lot political and there's a lot 

Tom Arbuthnot of global political landscape stuff going on. 

Yeah. And the and the return to the office is very different in different regions so it's are we gonna need this much space? Mm hmm. What type of space are we gonna need? I'm still seeing a lot of those which again plays to the all ones where they're just well we can just put these on trolleys and even if we change our office we can move them around. 

Yeah. 

Jenny Hicks Exactly. then there's the this the waiting for AI of oh well if we spend it now what might come out next year? So there's been such rapid evolution in terms of what you can do particularly with AI development and automation that I think if people are looking around their estate and going do what it's good enough. 

Now's not the time. Let's make sure we get the most for our money when we do spend it. then the the Me Too movement. So if if you recall with the Neat board and bars they were I believe the first to do they symmetry where it would. Give a a a thumbnail or a window for each individual head in the room. 

That's pretty common now. 

Tom Arbuthnot Yeah 

Jenny Hicks across almost every product but for about six to nine months they were the only ones that could do it. So. They enjoyed that and I I absolutely believe that with those guys they are innovators and that they're known for that. So that continues to generate them business but gradually as the others say me too me too me too. 

That user experience becomes pretty uniform across your hardware choice. And so there's not this. Concern now about upgrading all of your product in one go. Because if one brand runs outta something you can likely achieve the same experience with a slightly different brand mix in rooms on the rest of your estate. 

Yeah. This 

Tom Arbuthnot is what Microsoft would pitch as a benefit of the competitiveness of you you same user experience slightly different and use 

Jenny Hicks native Teams Rooms. That's that's the key isn't it? Because you won't know and I honestly is. Lucy from accounts going to walk in and go oof. It's a Logitech tap. 

Not to. Yeah. We we we spend 

Tom Arbuthnot all our time criticizing or what what the camera framing is or what's going on and they they're just trying to get their job done. 

Jenny Hicks Yeah. At at most they're gonna walk in and go this one's light gray the one in the other in the dark gray. And and and they're not going to realize that there's there's much of a difference between the two. 

So that has slowed down or or certainly reduced. The refresh opportunity. and the biggest one I think or I believe is an underlying reason for it is around sustainability and and ESG reporting. So if if you can't. Right now it's a there's an interesting you've got two choices you could replace kit that is working providing it offers you good sustainable gains. 

Now in the case of a Logitech or similar where you've got a lot of post consumer materials and recycled goods going into their products that. Doesn't necessarily benefit you if you are removing a perfectly working product unless you can reduce the energy consumption at that point it becomes worthwhile. 

So there's there's people that are making the decision to swap out product believing that their carbon emissions will be lowered because of energy consumption amongst other factors. 

Tom Arbuthnot Yeah. 

Jenny Hicks And then there's the people that say. I'm going to use this until it is absolutely dead because then I am not fueling that unsustainable marketplace of of 'cause it there isn't really much that happens with secondhand goods in this area. 

Mm hmm. there's there's initiatives that are starting now but there's not a huge market for pre loved meeting room equipment. So it's. Difficult. And we have we have our waste regulations but actually for for a lot of people it goes through a standard we we waste procedure. It doesn't get collected by the original manufacturer. 

It doesn't end up going back into the supply cycle. So I wonder if a lot of that has slowed us down. I I've heard it from some corporate end clients and I've heard it a lot from schools. if it ain't broke can't get a new one. Yeah. 

Tom Arbuthnot So that's really interesting. I wonder if a factor is as well. features don't come aligned to hardware anymore. 

So actually you buy a Teams room and you could be running for for five years and you've you've incrementally gained all the features over those five years. So it's not you're oh I'm missing out on interpreter or I'm missing out on Intel frame. Yeah it comes with the software. 

Jenny Hicks Yeah. 

And I think and also a lot of them are actually moving to be relatively agnostics. There's not many that support only Microsoft and not Zoom and and not WebEx. I mean Cisco product supporting Microsoft was a really interesting Yeah. Who saw 

Tom Arbuthnot that coming? 

Jenny Hicks but but I think that's about knowing. 

Being able to go to customers with hardware and say this you are not gonna outgrow this. It can grow with you. Yeah. that I feel that should change with AI. But I haven't seen it yet. So right now we are at a point where I the majority of people are running I seven processes on their laptops and whatever whatever they're running there's there's good processing power and capability in all of the hardware that we're using. 

So if you want to swap your software or if there's new features released nine times outta 10 your hardware's going to cope with them. AI. Maybe moves the gear stick there. because I think there will come a point 

Tom Arbuthnot just we've just started seeing some MTRs promoting having NPUs on on the Windows NTRs which is interesting. 

There's not a. Immediate public use case for that but it's oh you're all promoting it. So there's new horsepower there. As you say that might change things. And multi camera is another one. Oh. Where the the hardware's been impacted as well. If you wanna go through multi cam mm hmm. Then there's you need a certain amount of horsepower. 

Jenny Hicks Absolutely. And I think if I was looking at boardrooms or full sales floor rollouts now and similar I'd absolutely be looking at the highest specification available or product that with OPS slots or similar so something modular so that I can upgrade it if I needed to because we we might be a week away we might be two years away. 

From some revolutionary AI application that requires a much higher 

Tom Arbuthnot Yeah. 

Jenny Hicks capability from the hardware. So I I do think if you are well interestingly that that points 

Tom Arbuthnot you back to modular versus all in one doesn't it? Because that's oh actually I could swap out my compute unit in two years. 

So does sustainability. Yeah. 

Jenny Hicks So in the name of sustainability a return to modular you can swap out the compute you can likely. Recycle because tends to be more metal housing based product than plastics and bonded glass and similar. so it's highly likely that you can use it for longer repurpose it should. 

You need to or someone else can repurpose it. If you then sell it on or gift it through a preloved scheme and because of metal casings and and modularity it's more likely to be recycled. So there are. A number of it focused ethical recycling and disposal companies who will give you cash back. 

For precious materials and so on that they can extract from your products. And and this is quite a good revenue stream for some businesses particularly around desktop phones and similar that they are interested in in taking materials out of. That hasn't really happened in the display space yet. 

I suspect it it's coming and there might be some. Adjustments to product design that's needed. but absolutely that the argument for modular works both in future proofing and for sustainability. So I think we'll see a lot more of that. 

Tom Arbuthnot That's interesting. Oh thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. 

It's really really interesting to see where we end up this year. We're just at the start of year to record this so we'll we'll see where we get to but appreciate you taking the time to jump on the show. I I'll I'll see you in person at ISE expect 

Jenny Hicks at ISE. Yes. Thank you very much for having me. 

Tom Arbuthnot Awesome. Thanks Jenny.