Chris Johnson: We have a burn down list of ensuring that we can get to Windows parody. So the things that traditionally have been on Teams Rooms, on Windows, for instance, that we want to try and see all of that come to Android and we actually even feel that we can go potentially even a little faster due to the flexibility and and agility in the Android code base and how, how quickly it can bring things out.

Tom Arbuthnot: Hi, and welcome back to the Teams Insider Podcast. This week we've got Chris Johnson, who is Senior Director of Product Management for MDEP, the Microsoft Devices ecosystem platform. This is Microsoft's Android enterprise platform. We've seen some of this coming into the teams ecosystem in terms of teams, devices, and Chris takes us through what MDEP is.

What the problem is that it's looking to solve how it works in terms of releases, chip set vendors, how they work with OEM partners, how patching and security works, and Chris also gives us a sneak peek into some of the features that are coming down the pipe with MDEP depth just ahead of some Infocom announcements.

So it really hope you enjoy the show. Many thanks to Chris for taking the time to explain it all. Also, many thanks to Jabra who are the sponsor of this podcast. Really appreciate their support of everything we're doing at Empowering Cloud on with the show. Welcome back to the podcast. Excited to have this conversation on the pod.

I've had a few good conversations with Chris in, uh, various events and a couple of bars, uh, in the past. Uh, but now we're going on the record of the pod. Uh, Chris, thanks so much for joining. Maybe you could just start with introducing yourself. And, and your current role. And then I wanna go a little bit through your 25 year history at Microsoft just to 

Chris Johnson: Oh, sure.

Yeah. You're dating me. 

You're dating me. Thanks Tom. Yeah. Super excited to be here. Um, Chris Johnson, uh, I've, I'm a senior director, program management, uh, responsible for md. Um, I've been at Microsoft just a scant over 25 years. As, as Tom mentioned, um, most of that has been in either. Windows or in, uh, the Surface team.

Um, most recently I was with the Surface Duo team and responsible for, uh, two generations of the Surface Duo, uh, which then, uh, ultimately became the Android platform, um, that we're talking about today. MDEP. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome man. So first thing I'm gonna dig into is Windows team and then MD e but let's, let's level set for everybody.

Sure. What, what is MDEP. 

Chris Johnson: Yeah, so the easiest way to think of, I mean, I'll, I'll maybe just kind of paint the picture. You know, we, we think of it as sort of android's everywhere. It's in digital signage, control panels, you know, conferencing, gear, kiosks, all those things. But enterprise, Android for us is a little bit broken.

It's, it's fragmented, it's kind of inconsistent. App vendors have like these unique compatibility challenges, um, with each OS flavor, and ultimately it's hard to secure and manage at scale. So we kind of reimagined. The approach to Android open source and, and said, what happens when, when we take kind of windows as an OS company at Microsoft and bring it.

That sort of enterprise grade DNA, um, security manageability, ai, uh, long-term support model. Um, and we brought those to Android and that's really MDEP is stands for the Microsoft Device Ecosystem Platform, and it's built on Android open source, uh, hardened by US, Microsoft, and, and aligned with really the same platform strategy that transformed, you know, windows into what we consider to be the world's most trusted enterprise os.

So. It's more than a product. It's really, we think of it as kind of the blueprint for the future of enterprise Android. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. And, and it's, um, it's an os in the sense of, uh, I wanna get into the kind of the open source project, what you do with it. Mm-hmm. But it's, it's an os but you don't just provide it to anybody to use.

Like in the, in that sense, you are building it and then you are providing it to select OEMs or see a lot of this community in the, in the team space. We've started to hear it on. Teams, devices, but potentially other things beyond that as well. 

Chris Johnson: Correct, correct. Yeah. And so I think, you know, um, you know, as we think about it, you know, we take, we take open source, uh, you know, Google's, uh, release of, of Android open source, and this is tailored for very specific devices.

In this particular instance that we're talking about right now are in the unified communication space. So we're, we're focused primarily on, uh, teams, devices, and the like. Um, and we take that Android Open Source OS platform and we reduce it to a kiosk mode that is very tailored specifically for the device classes that we ship on.

And so rather than, you know, having these different versions and kind of custom forks and, and spotty update practices that are kind of a mess for it, our approach is that enterprises want consistency, security, and manageability and not fragmentation. And, and that's what we really deliver to a set of partners.

And, and there's a commitment that's made from those partners, um, just like the commitment we make to them, um, when they dis when they sign a platform distribution agreement with us. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. And there's quite a lot to this whole Android world in the sense of there's obviously the Android open source project, then there's, there's Google take that and make their kind of commercial version with the Google store.

Mm-hmm. And then you've got the, the various chip set vendors as well. That have a, have a, a play in this. So how does it work from, if we ignore the kind of Google have a commercial option, the, the open source project, the chip sets, the OEMs, and you, what role does everybody play there? Because I know you, you support specific chip sets and, and the chip that vendors have responsibility.

Chris Johnson: Yeah. Great. Great question Tom. So I think, yeah, let's piece that apart a little bit. Um. Yes. So in in our, in our particular space, we are aligning with, uh, specific chip sets and we continue to add to that portfolio. So we have a very close alignment with the silicon providers, most notably, uh, Qualcomm, uh, media tech.

Um, we've got, uh, alliances with rock chip. We've also got alliances with NXP. Um, all of these chip set providers that, that today support Android and we are. Uh, we work closely with them on, on the silicon side of it because there is a, um, a specific silicon bring up component to be brought up. And then we build the foundational platform in MDEP and that's what's delivered to, um, to our OEM uh, partners.

And those partners then have the ability to innovate. On top of that, um, to differentiate, you know, specifically with, uh, with their particular platforms. Um, and then ultimately it's, uh, certified by, uh, service providers. So in the case of teams or in the case of Zoom, those devices, um, that are certified, uh, at the end of the day.

So MD is, is essentially a, an a SP based platform, but doesn't come with all the. The Google GMS, uh, requirements because it, it ships non GMS. And so, um, that's kind of our approach to it. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. And that certification bit's really interesting as well. Like the, you give the os to the, the OEM. So some, some ones that have been announced that we're safe to say, you know, yay link Jabra, they produce the device, they then take that device back to a different part of Microsoft and get that device certified or Zoom or whoever else.

Correct. 

Chris Johnson: Correct. That's, that's exactly it. And you know, obviously we, we back the platform to ensure that. It can meet the requirements of, um, not just of teams, but Zoom and, and other Voss providers and ensure that if there are anything, you know, any elements of the platform that need to be, um, tailored specific for, for those, we do that work.

And so we know that, you know, obviously it's powering Teams Rooms on Android today and Zoom, uh, devices as well. Mm-hmm. Um, but that certification process is ultimately up. To the OEM and the vast provider, we kind of stay out of the middle of that with the exception of, you know, the fixes and the requirements that we provide.

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, I think this is really good to understand and why, it's interesting that I think from an outside point of view, a lot of people would assume MDEP is part of teams, but actually it's out of the Windows team and it's provided to the OEMs 

Chris Johnson: Exactly. Yeah. Uh, yeah, O obviously, obviously we work, we work closely with teams to ensure that we get requirements and make sure that the platform can be built to meet those, but we're not in the middle of any of the certification stuff.

Um, and, and like I said. It. It's really irrespective of what VOS provider has shipped on the device. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. And you talked about kind of the, the fragmented nature of Android and enterprise. So how, how are you dealing with patches and updates and is that direct from you? Is that via the OEM who makes sure that happens?

'cause that's, that's been one of the challenges with Android historically, is nobody's policing anything. So you are, you are, you are putting your trust in the OEM i guess. 

Chris Johnson: Yeah, correct. And, and, and I, and I completely understand that. I think, you know, um, any, IT department obviously wants to ensure that their devices are secure and managed well, um, and patched, uh, in, in an appropriate fashion.

And so one of the things that we bring is, is kind of that, like I said earlier, the, the legacy of Windows and understanding that. You know, sort of core to our DNA is the ability to, to update and keep devices supported. And so what we do is we provide to the OEMs monthly security patches. We, we, in addition to the two to four kind of major feature updates that we provide per year.

And then we have a life cycle support that is really aligned to an enterprise philosophy, uh, of ensuring that patches are delivered in a timely, in a timely fashion. And so we provide those. Uh, those updates and patches as well as any security fixes. Um, and we provide those directly to the OEM in a monthly fashion, and then we have alignment with those OEMs.

Um, part of being an MDEP partner is understanding that, um, there's a commitment that's made from both the OEM and Microsoft to ensure that those devices are updated in a timely fashion, so they're not. Uh, treated appliance like, which is what a lot of, a lot of Android devices that have been deployed in in enterprises of recent are somewhat treat, treated that fashion and they're, they're not regularly updated.

And so that is, I think an really an evolution of the ecosystem that we're bringing to the table with them to. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. And, and so you are doing kind of security fix releases and feature releases. Um, and, uh, I, I said this to, um, yeah, the other week, like, I, I appreciate the naming convention of, uh, 2024.1 2025.

I, I hope you hold onto that naming convention. That actually makes sense. But you just, I think you just did the latest release, is that right? 

Chris Johnson: Yeah, yeah. We just released 2025.1. Um, which is, uh. Really our final feature release. So back to your earlier question. Yeah. There's, there's kind of a, you can think of it, sort of a TikTok approach to this thing where we're, we're dropping major releases, uh, two to four times per year, uh, roughly, um, a minimum of two, maybe a maximum of four of these feature updates.

And then, but then every month we, we also roll the security patches, uh, which includes a focus on the silicon security patches as well as those released by Google. And then any. Any security fixes that come from our side on the platform. So those come monthly. Um, the feature releases, yeah, like I said, we just released the 2025.1 and that that will be our final feature release on Android 13.

Um, and, and effectively, again, going back to the kind of the Windows terminology, this will be our long-term servicing branch for partners that are on. On Android 13. So in the case where you want to stay on Android 13, you'll continue to get support and updates on that, um, long-term servicing branch. But then also there's, uh, compelling reasons that are coming for our next release.

Um, following that which will be a, a release on, uh, Android 15. 

Tom Arbuthnot: That's awesome. And how, how does that work? One of the challenges in the android space that we see in the team space is the, the, the chip sets only support certain versions and, and Microsoft only certify certain versions for so long. Does anything you do influence that or are you on the same type of dependency of the, the chip set and, and Google, I guess the open source product, I guess ultimately.

Chris Johnson: Yeah. Great, great question again, Tom. So there's a, there's a, it's a. A little bit of give and take. We work very closely, like I said earlier, with the silicon providers to ensure that when we're making a commitment towards a long-term support for an Android version, that they're in alignment with that on a specific chip set.

And so that is the, the way we prioritize support for our chip sets. And so, uh, you know, I think one, one of the key commitments that we can make is, is that. If it's an in depth supported chip set, we will support it for the lifecycle of the silicon provider on that Android version and continue to drop updates, um, throughout its entire lifecycle.

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. And, and, uh, I think you said it, but just to kind of make sure I understand it, like not, not anybody can just grab MD depth, like they can grab Android and build a device. They have to have a relationship with you. They have to sign an agreement. Like it's a, a formal thing to get, get the OS correct?

Yeah. 

Chris Johnson: Yeah. We have a, we have a platform distribution agreement that we work with the OEM specifically on for, um, you know, device makes and models. So we know, we wanna make sure that. When we commit to a specific device, that we are committed to the long-term support of that device, both from features, but you know, more importantly I think from supportability for, um, security patching and updates.

And so part of that chip set selection is, like I said, making sure that we've got that alignment in place. And so, you know, I, I think hopefully that, that we've driven that point home, but, um, I think it's a, it's a very important one to make that. That when a, uh, when a customer makes a selection of an OEM partner device that chipped on M depth, that they understand that, um, there's long-term support for that, um, coming from Microsoft, uh, as the platform, uh, developer.

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, that's good to understand. I think that that the, the, the device, if it has M depth, the, the, the OEM is then committed to providing those security patches. Correct. 'cause you do see devices come and go in our space, like a device does really well and it'll, they'll be well looked after and a device does a few thousand units allow.

It's not quite as interesting to us, but like there's no in the, in, in, in this world of you are supporting it, you're supporting it. 

Chris Johnson: Right. Exactly. Right. Yep. Yeah. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Nice. And, and maybe we're a couple of weeks out from Infocom as we recall. Probably even closer as we, as we publish. Yeah. What, as much as you can share, what's, what's coming down the pipe both in terms of, you know, future updates and devices?

Chris Johnson: Sure, sure. So, um, obviously MDEPs gonna be showcased at, at Infocom we have a bunch of new partnerships to announce. Um, and there will be, uh. OEM partners that will be, uh, doing specific device launches. And so you'll see more about that. And, and obviously the partner interest from our side continues to grow rapidly.

In fact, um, you know, we're investing heavily in on our side to be able to support these, uh, you know, sort of growing partners. Um, I think, uh, you know, some of the things that you're gonna see in terms of the. The, um, announcements at Infocom, obviously we will be, be showcasing, you know, the feature set that'll be coming in 2025.2, which will be the Android 15 release that I mentioned.

Um, you know, I think, we'll, we have clear value add features there focused on, you know, auto like. You know, autopilot like deployment, um, extensive remote management capabilities and some of the zero trust security strategies for the platform. Uh, I think we will likely be, uh, or expect that our partners will be really the very first, uh, uc devices to support Android 15.

Um, we're pretty confident that well, not only will we delivering the platform that we have OEM partners that are gonna go pretty fast to, to move to Android 15, which I think is pretty exciting. And then I think finally, just as a teaser for Infocom, but you know, as a lot of folks have been speculating, we're looking to expanding M depth device categories to support, uh, interactive and non-interactive displays.

So there are clear scenarios. Which are, uh, o obviously large demand. This is a multi-billion dollar market, you know, for really enter enterprise grade digital signage solutions. Um, and this is part of our long-term strategy to, to offer, uh, you know, for MDEP to offer secure, scalable. Manageable solutions in this enterprise space and much more to come at Infocom.

Um, but you know, we're gonna roll this out smoothly and, and likely thing 

Tom Arbuthnot: look out for, uh, look out for announcements in Infocom week. I'll be gathering all the new up for the newsletter as well. There's a, there's a few bits and pieces I, I know are coming that are quite, quite exciting and it's nice to see.

I guess one of the, the nice things for you is. Seeing the device come to fruition. 'cause when you're building an os there's such a long lead between you having the conversation, getting the agreement, getting the device baked and out there it must be, uh, you know, you're starting to see things come to life now.

Chris Johnson: Oh yeah, absolutely. And, and, uh, you know, back to where we started this, this call in my background, um, my. My background is actually in civil engineering. Uh, my degree is in civil engineering and, and, uh, have a master's in transportation engineering. That's where I started before I came to Microsoft 25 years ago.

And I. Uh, it's a lot like that civil engineering where, you know, you would work on projects. I would work on a, on a Home Depot project for instance, and I'd be done and moved on and it's two and a half years later and then all of a sudden that project is being built and, you know, you drive by it and see, oh wow, that's thing's finally getting built.

It feels a lot like that. You know, you're working with, uh, with these partners very closely doing deep co-engineering and integration work. You get through all of those challenges, you're super happy with the validation and the quality of the, of the product that you're shipping. But then it still takes quite a while before that partner can finish all of their validations, do you know, technical adoption, uh, you know, potentially do some previews of the, of the product and then ultimately get it certified and out on the, out, out on the floor.

And yeah, sometimes there's a big gap between those. And, um, so it is kind of exciting now to see devices finally coming to fruition. 

Tom Arbuthnot: That's nice, and it's interesting to hear some of those things. You hinted towards the future releases. You're starting to see things that Windows is known for the, the extra levels of security and, and like, like this is where you are really starting to add differentiation around what you are doing on top of the open source project, I guess.

Chris Johnson: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, certainly we have a, we have a burn down list of ensuring that we can get to Windows parody. Um, so the things that, that, you know, traditionally have been on, uh, teams, rooms on Windows, for instance, that we want to try and see all of that come to Android and we actually even feel that we can go potentially even a little faster, um, just due to the flexibility and, and agility in the Android code base and how, how quickly it can bring things out.

So, um, yeah, I mean, you know, I think the message we wanna drive is, you know, certainly we are committed to Android. Our commitment is serious, strategic, and accelerating. 

Tom Arbuthnot: And, and how does it work? One of the questions I get when I'm talking to enterprises and the OEMs is, do, do all the devices end up the same because it's, it's MDEP, MDEP, MDEP. Like, 

so where's the line between what you provide the OEMs and what the OEMs can then do on top and around? 

Chris Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. I think, you know, what we're looking to do in, in MDEP depth is really provide kind of the, you know, the bedrock, like a consistent. Secure, you know, scalable Android foundation for, um, these specialty devices.

And it's, it's built to reduce the partner investment in the base platform plumbing. And it's designed to really accelerate the time to market and improve their lifecycle support. So that's the pieces that we provide now. Your question about do they all end up the same? Not even close. Like for OEMs and ODMs, it's reusable and it's modular and it's customizable.

So it's backed by our platform engineering support and update cadence, but it really enables them to spend, uh, their time innovating and differentiation on the platform itself for what they want to bring. Um, and so a lot of times that's at the hardware level and sometimes that's at the software level done on top of that.

And, you know, I think we're seeing that, uh, particularly in the AI market, um, space, right where we will, we will deliver a platform, for instance, in ai that's a centralized AI framework, and that's built in support for Onyx and other on-device models. But, um, that's really an express lane for then the OEM to differentiate.

On, on top of. 

Tom Arbuthnot: So they're still in a position where they can add their, their own management layer, their extra secret source of how they do camera framing or signage or whatever they do on, on top. They're kind of, they're using you as a, I like the bedrock term or the base term shame. Same time another vendor took that.

Chris Johnson: Yeah, yeah. Um, no, it's, it's, it's exactly it. I think, um, you know, the, the important part is, is that, yeah, the, the stuff that might be boring to some people is, is really what we're delivering that. That foundational, um, piece that, that they build off of. And yeah, the stuff like the multimedia platform, the streaming, the camera, um, the audio, all of that is left to the OEM and the ODM to specialize on and not have to spend all of their time taking these massive Android distributions and developing a tight kiosk platform, which is, you know, really where we provide, uh, the benefit.

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. Well, thanks Chris for taking the time. Oh, you bet. And it's really good to have that clearly explain where everything hangs together. Um, for everybody listening, look out for more news, both from the OEMs and from Microsoft at Infocom as well. And, uh, yeah, Chris, maybe we'll, uh, let, let the ecosystem develop a bit more and then we can have another conversation about, uh, releases and devices in the future.

Chris Johnson: That would be awesome, Tom. I really appreciate the 

Tom Arbuthnot: time. Awesome. 

Thanks so much. 

Chris Johnson: All right. Thank you.