Duncan Finlay: It's one of those that evil as a, as a grizzled and jaded old telco veteran. When I, whenever I see it, I kind of go, actually. Yeah. That's quite cool. And what's I think is, is doubly exciting about this for us is as well as the, the capability itself being unique to us, the important thing for me is that it talks back to that thing that I mentioned earlier about saving cost, and saving time, and saving energy.

Tom Arbuthnot: Hi, and welcome back to the Teams Insider Podcast. This week we are talking Teams Phone Mobile, uh, hot off the press. In the UK we have our third operator offering Teams Phone Mobile, and we talk to Duncan at VM02 about the proposition, the, the value to end customers, how it all works. And Duncan also has a wealth of experience in the mobile telco space.

So we got into some of that backstory in history as well. Many thanks to Duncan for taking the time to jump on the pod, and many thanks to Luware who are the sponsor of this podcast. Really appreciate their support of everything we're doing at Empowering.Cloud. On with the show. Hi everybody. Welcome back to the Teams Insider Podcast.

Really exciting conversation this week. Uh, we've been talking about teams phone, mobile quite a lot, and we now have a third operator in the UK who is live. I've got Duncan on the show. I'm gonna dive into what teams phone motor is, uh, and also some of the opportunities, how some of the tech works. So Duncan, welcome to Shay.

Duncan Finlay: Thank you very much, Tom. Great to be here. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. So you've got a long background in telco. I think we might have crossed paths in the past. Can you just give us a little bit about your, uh, background and your current role and kind of how, uh, VM02 is looking at the whole modern work proposition as well?

Duncan Finlay: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, no, as you, as you say, I'm kind of long in the long in the Telco tooth. Um, I'm meant that in a nice way, you and me both. Yeah. Yeah. It's my youthful looks. Um. Yeah, so I, I, I first started at my telco journey, uh, way back in 2001, uh, as a fresh faced young marketing graduate, uh, at Vodafone.

Um, and, uh, spent a, a long time at Vodafone in a number of, number of different roles across consumer and enterprise. And that was where I first kind of encountered the world of unified comms and contact center and fixed and mobile convergence in a, a, a role there. Um, and since then I've kind of, I've, I've left there a while ago, uh, moved over to three where I spent some time in their wholesale product and marketing unit.

And then I joined, uh, Virgin Media in the middle of the first lockdown. Uh, July, 2020, which was a strange experience, kind of 'cause everything was locked down, 

Tom Arbuthnot: so you were like a remote onboard. 

Duncan Finlay: It was really weird because you don't have all of the usual kind of psychological markers for leaving. A place, you know, kind of saying goodbye to everybody and leaving dues and things like that.

I literally left my role at three on, on the Tuesday, started at Virgin Media on the Wednesday and I moved from sitting at home working on a grey Dell laptop to sitting at home working on a slightly different grey Dell laptop. Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? 

Tom Arbuthnot: Like I think psychologically that's really. Interesting that it's just like, oh, Friday I was on this, and Monday I'm on that.

And it's a whole, whole new team and a whole new world. But yeah. Yeah, same, same physicality. 

Duncan Finlay: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, it, it was, it was quite a jolt, but it was a really interesting time to join, uh, uh, Virgin Media because about two weeks after I joined the, uh, the merger with O2. Announced. Mm-hmm. So we were straight into that kind of process of, of integration, which has been, you know, it's been a, a really, really interesting journey.

Um, 

Tom Arbuthnot: and for our global audience, like they probably recognize those brands, but could you just kind of summarize. What Virgin Media is and what O2 is in those two worlds coming together. 

Duncan Finlay: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So Virgin Media, um, has, has been a, so it's been very much in kind of a fixed line challenger brand in the UK for a number of a, a, a good number of years.

Um, and that's across consumer and, and business and in, in consumer, you know, a lot of focus on, on, you know, having the kind of, the, the, the fastest and best quality. Um. Broadband connectivity with a, the kind of a TV service overlay, and then obviously a mobile, uh, capability as well. And then virgin media business, there was a lot of heavy focus on, again, that, that the, the data networking, connectivity, good strong presence in public sector.

That's the kind of the heritage there. And the, the good fit with O2 was the O2 of all of the major mobile operators like Vodafone and, and, and EE O2 was, if you like, kind of the most. Mobile centric. Um, a lot of focus, a lot of driver it from, you know, the early days of, of having exclusivity on the iPhone, you know, kind of a, a, a lot of, uh, real heavy customer focus.

Yeah. You O2. Um, and a real kind of innovative sense to the brand. So actually bringing those two brands together brought a company with a strong fixed heritage company with a strong mobile heritage. There was a real natural fit there. Um, and interestingly culturally, that's been the case as well. Both kind of companies have had a very similar mindset historically.

So bringing those together has been, you know, a really interesting journey. Um, and for, for, for me personally, uh, our team as it is the kind of the modern workplace team now, because of the products that we look after in the kind of the voice, the uc contact center manage mobility space actually straddled the, the, the, the kind of the Venn diagram.

Between the two parent companies as well. Yeah. So we were almost straight into the how do we integrate these things? How do we get these things working together? What do we focus on? Whereas the more either mobile centric parts of the business or fix it, we're almost slightly away from the integration.

We were right into it from day one. Um, so it's been a really interesting journey and I, I, I feel that we're in a really. You know, really exciting space right now with a lot of the things that we're doing in the, the modern workplace area. Definitely. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Nice. And what does your remit look like? Because, uh, that is kind of bringing that modern work portfolio together, right?

Duncan Finlay: Yeah, it is. Absolutely. Yeah. So I look after our, our modern workplace portfolios that runs the gambit from our, um, legacy Voice network products that we're. Obviously switching off, um, at, at, at a rate in the uk it runs through our IP Voice, unified Comms Contact Center Suite, and then also our manage mobility products.

So a lot of, look, we do a lot of work with the likes of Microsoft on Copilot and Intune Defender, um, endpoint security. So we, we kind of bring all of those together. And look at, we work, we work a lot with our marketing colleagues on what are the right propositions that we can construct, you know, for field workers, hybrid workers, different personas, and what are the right product components we can then bring together to kind of bring those propositions to life.

That's very much where we sit. I. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. And let's talk teams phone, mobile. 'cause that's the, the hot conversation at the moment. So, um, like, I guess briefly, can you talk us through kind of what, what it is for, I, I guess most people listening to this pod already, already into it, but it'd be interesting to see how you, I.

Pitch it as a capability. Business value. 

Duncan Finlay: Yeah, definitely. I mean, do you know, do you know what, one of the things now I've, I've, I've thought this, um, thought this a lot recently. I've been in and outta this part of the market for, as I say, for, for a number of years now. But the, the thing that always keeps me coming back to it, and I think teams voice and teams phone, mobile specifically, is a great example, is it changes the nature of the conversation you can have with your customers.

So you're not just talking to customers about. Sims and devices and circuits and speed. Now you can talk to the CIO about what's their technology strategy, evolution, roadmap. You could talk to the HR director about how are they gonna keep their people connected and motivated and supported in a distributed world.

You can talk to the. The finance director about, you know, existing in a cost of living crisis with challenges all over the place, and how can they really sweat and maximize their, their, their kind of technology investments. You can. It kind of opens up all these different interesting conversations and avenues you can have with customers.

I. Um, and that's kind of very much where we, you know, we, we, we are kind of focusing our Teams Phone and Teams Phone, Mobile effort is on really underpinning those, those customer conversations and using this to bring them to life. Um, and the other thing I think is really exciting about it is that I think for the first time as an industry, we can.

We can kind of genuinely start to make good on that promise of fixed mobile convergence. And FMC has been kicking around for ages. 

Tom Arbuthnot: It has been forever it feels like. Yeah. Finally, because of the tight integration with the UCAS, it finally feels like some of the premise, you know, I was doing it back in, I.

My Cisco days are basic, like, like, like it was basically clever handoff. Like you're on the wifi. Yeah. Um, but, but now it's getting much smarter and it feels like, certainly from the Microsoft team, there's a lot of investment and mindshare there on like mobile is important. This is only gonna get to be a, a tighter and clever integration.

Duncan Finlay: Yeah, definitely. And that's, that's, that's one of the reasons why, you know, we find it so exciting here is because, you know, like you said, you know, the industry's been talking about this for, for years and years and years, but it's never quite managed to hit the intersection between kind of the, the, the, the UCAS piece and the, the collaboration piece and the network piece.

And that's never really kind of all quite hung together. You could have a couple, but you've never really managed to bring the whole lot together into one so that you can kind of start to say now. We can genuinely make people, device, location, and task agnostic. So it doesn't matter now what device you're trying to work on, what task you're trying to do and where you are, kind of doesn't matter anymore.

And that I think is really that, that, again, that provokes a lot of really interesting light bulb moments with a lot of customers where they kind of, you can see them kind of go, huh uh oh, okay. Uh, because I think up until now it's almost been a bit of a industry led. You really want FMC, you really want FMC and, and the market's kind of gone.

Okay, do we Alright? Yeah. Whereas now I think we can really bring it to life. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Well, I al I, I would almost say in some cases, particularly with. Smaller org slash uh, recently established organizations. It's mobile first backing into absolutely connect to UC rather than UC, kind of going into mobile. And I certainly see with my, the enterprise customers that I talk to all the time, there's a lot of rationalization of fixed line where they're looking at the stats and they're going.

Actually, like we mostly meetings these days. Like maybe we do shared coding, maybe we do outbound. Um, but I don't see anybody saying that about mobile technology. 'cause obviously it's pretty integrated into everything we do these days to the point where we're, we are having conversations about maybe I could live on an iPad, maybe I'm mobile first.

That kind of thing. So you feel like it feels like. These things always take longer than, than maybe technologies think, but it feels like that's definitely the direction of travel. 

Duncan Finlay: Yeah, 100%. And I, and I think that, you know, your, your, your point about fixed line is really interesting 'cause we, we definitely see this as, as.

The, the first step in the, the, the customer conversation is, you know, we know that, you know, well over 60% of our, our customer base is grappling with some kind of legacy technology transition challenge right now. And that could be, you know, 3G switch off. It could be legacy voice switch off. It could be, I.

A data network migration from IPVPN to SDM whatever it, whatever that is, right? There's, there's, and they all point to a, a similar challenge that customers are grappling with, which is I've now got this kind of long tail of legacy technology, which is costing me money and it's costing me flexibility.

I can't then trim that down or reinvest that. You know, I'm also struggling with, you know, shadow IT since Covid, you know, the popup of multiple different collaborate because people are collaborating on Slack or Zoom or whatever. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. 

Duncan Finlay: Um, or they've, they've got a whole bunch of existing investment. I. We, we know about the explosion of teams, obviously.

What is it? 350 million users accounting. Yeah. 20 

Tom Arbuthnot: million monthly active. About what? 20 million phone is the official number that it's a little bit higher now. 

Duncan Finlay: Exactly. And it's absolutely exploded. And, and so many customers now are, are out there kind of going, well, how do I sweat that investment that I've already made?

And, you know, we think that the, the, the team's phone piece, especially with, with, with the mobile integration kind of hits on all three of those, those fundamental challenges, which is, you know, if you are looking at. A cost base that includes, you know, some IDNs or some, some sit with, you know, hooked up to a PBX that might be on site and an engineer comes and hits it with a spanner when it breaks or it's up in the cloud or whatever.

You've got licenses attached to that and desk phones attached to that. You've got an existing investment on Microsoft, possibly with a, a lot of E5 licenses depending on, yeah, the E5 is a 

Tom Arbuthnot: big one as well, isn't it? We, we know from the numbers there's, you know. 40 million plus E5s and there's 20 million Teams Phone, and not all the Teams Phone are E5.

So there's got to be 20 odd, you know, give or take in direction as much. They don't give us the exact numbers, publicly, million licensed phone users out there that haven't activated yet. So, and maybe some of those use cases are because they're not super heavy on fixed line. Maybe they're mobile first.

Duncan Finlay: Yeah. And it's, and it's great. It's great, it's great when you kind of, so I had a, I had a conversation with a, a, a customer not that long ago actually, and we were kind of talking, talking through all this and, and all the use cases. And I, I, I kind of almost fell into the classic telco chap of I, it does this and you can, you can uplift calls and you've got CLA and stuff like this.

And, but the bit where the light bulb really went on was when I was talking about the exist, the fact that team's phone or as a capability already exists inside an E5 license. And, and the response from the, from the customer was, huh, okay, so I've got loads of these already, so actually I can then unlock this kind of saving 'cause I can then rip out all of these other things.

I can better sweat this, this asset I've already spent the money on. And deliver these other benefits, and it was almost kind of, that was where the conversation really turned a corner. Because rather than us, I guess as an industry, almost like self-aggrandizing, by saying about all the features and the widgets from a customer's perspective, we could say, this can save you money and this can save you time.

Operationally by simplifying all of this infrastructure 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. 

Duncan Finlay: And, and bringing it all together onto a single platform. So you can then communicate not just yourselves, but also with your customers. Right. So we know we've got, what is it, five generations of, of, of people in the workplace these days? Um, and you know, I know my kids, they, they communicate very, very differently than I do.

You know, if somebody actually calls 'em on their phone, they freak out. Um, but having, having that kind of complete. Communications capability just on one platform actually means that our customers can meet their customers where they are and the communications methods that they prefer. So that simplicity really touches, I think, to a number of those different.

Different use cases. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. So let's talk about the Saving money's interesting, isn't it? Because I feel like teams phone, mobile, it's been in market for a while now. So in the uk we had BT first Vodafone and then, uh, you guys VM O2. Mm-hmm. It, it hasn't taken off as fast as I thought it would, and I think that's part of the conversation is there is an additional cost for I think all the carriers at the moment to add this capability on.

Uh, uh, and I like how you are talking about the kind of complete lifecycle conversation. So is that how you're going into customers and saying, this value is worth adding, like whatever it is, you know, typically it's between four and 10 bucks on, on the carriers to add this capability because operational, saving, business value, one number to manage.

Is that the story? 

Duncan Finlay: Yeah, definitely. Because, because the. That concept of, you know, we, we've, we have a, you know, we, we charge a customer a certain amount and then this is an upsell to customer. That's very much us, that's our concept. Mm-hmm. So we look at it and kind of say, well, how can we, how can we convert and drive this upsell?

If we flip that round and look at it from a customer's perspective, really it's a total cost of ownership saving. Because we can say, well actually we can, we can enable you to remove. All of this cost and complexity that you've got. So for, for a, you know, for a small additional fee, you can plug in your, um, Microsoft licenses date that you are already spending money on to your mobile that you are already spending money on, and then clean a lot of this out.

And then you can then start to derive the additional collaboration, productivity, contactability benefits, and dah dah. We can talk about that. But your first step is this, this can save you money. Mm-hmm. So actually there, there's a real value attached. To, to that in terms, in terms of that. And I feel that that to, to me, that's, that's the way in to, to, to a lot of customers because you know, especially in the current environment with cost of living and tariffs and uncertainty all over the place, if we can give the story, which is very much around, you know, we can help you.

Yeah, we can help you effectively just spend more of your time and money just running your business rather than working on your business. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, 

Duncan Finlay: you can, you can actually kind of drive your business forward because you're spending less time and money on your, your communications infrastructure. That feels like a more compelling start to the conversation and then you can take it off in all the different directions.

Tom Arbuthnot: And who do you, who are you thinking about as your kind of. Ideal target market slash persona slash scenario of team tone mobile. 'cause I imagine like, like every large telco, you've got a field, you know, talking to all different people about all different solutions. What's your perspective on where this is gonna be a more natural fit?

Duncan Finlay: Well, the, so the way that we, the way that we've kind of looking at this is, is very much from a proposition. A focus. So from a, from a persona perspective, so field worker for example, you know, we know there's, there's a consistently across verticals. So rather than getting hyper verticalized across verticals, we know that um, there are a range of different use cases for predominantly mobile users.

We also know that there are a range of different use cases for hybrid workers as well, and this is where we kind of bring the story together. So it's teams phone, mobile is, is absolutely key pillar, but really it's a teams. Phone. It is a teams collaboration conversation. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, 

Duncan Finlay: because we, we, we think that the majority of customers will probably look for a, a mixed estate deployment where they'll look for, they'll, they'll have use cases for their predominant field workers.

Could be engineers, assessors, sales, you know, whatever. Uh, but also an, an additional use case for their more hybrid workers, folks like us. Um, so being able to bring that together into, to one. One kind of platform, one story, so it's less of a siloed product story and more of a solution story where we can go, well, we can give you just a single pane of glass.

You can manage it all. There's automation behind it, and then you just have different deployments for your different personas in your organization. And yeah, if we extend that out, we, we, we think that there's a, a, a, a substantial opportunity for this, right up and down the customer size. It's that whether you're an SMB kind of mid-market, these are all arbitrary telco definitions of customer size, right?

But mid-market, up into large enterprise and public sector. Um, it's just that the, the customer drivers will be different. So as you, as you say at the start, you know, very, in that kind of SMBs space, there's a real kind of mobile only. Conversation. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. 

Duncan Finlay: Um, and how do I grow and scale my business without having to put down some of the heavy fixed infrastructure?

As you get up into the, um, the, the large enterprise market, there's a, there's, that's where the real kind of legacy technology, debt simplification becomes much more relevant. 'cause they're, they've got a lot more of that. And we see a lot of that as we're going through our voice network switch off when you start to really talk to customers and understand what they've already got in place.

There's, there's a lot of complexity there. So, so we kind of view it as a, as a, as a kind of, as a persona driven. 

Tom Arbuthnot: That's interesting. Yeah. So different type pockets of users within customers potentially as well as like customer type. 

Duncan Finlay: Yeah. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Um, what's your, uh, perception done, kind of like the, the end market understanding this?

I was talking about this, um, I was talking with a few people, but, uh, we, we had, um, Adam Holtby from Omdia recently, and we were talking about like the end, the end customers don't seem to yet. Understand what it is or what the capabilities are. Does that, because you've obviously had early customers working on it, you've been talking to customers.

What's your perception of that? Yeah, 

Duncan Finlay: well, so I, I, yeah, so I think this is a bit of a, you know, being long in the telco too, I think this is a bit of an industry challenge because. One of the things that we've grappled with, right? As we, and we've grappled with this internally as well, it's been really interesting learnings, is that the amount of folks that you speak to and you kind of talk about teams phone, mobile, and they go, oh, I've already got it.

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, yeah. 

Duncan Finlay: It's, it's the, it's the, 

Tom Arbuthnot: it's this isn't it. That definitely resonates. That's the first thing I hear when I talk about it as well. I'm like, not the app, but like, oh, what? It's not the app. 

Duncan Finlay: Yeah, it's it's teams and it's on my mobile. It's mobile. Right. So, so if you, I think the key thing is, is keeping, keeping that in.

Because it's easy to just kind of run away from where the customer is. 'cause you charge off into, you know, all the different kind of product capabilities it can do. You kind of come, come straight back to, actually, let's just point out what it isn't. And why is it that actually this level of integration into your mobile native network experience, what does that then unlock in terms of that seamless interaction between your mobile and your teams and all of the things we talk about?

You know, the single presence, the single voicemail, the moving calls between teams, all of those, those really, really cool features that are just continually being added and expanded by Microsoft. Mm-hmm. But it's, it's, it's making sure we don't lose sight of that as a first question, which is I've already got it.

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. 

Duncan Finlay: And I th and I think that, I, I think personally that that's been a, probably been a bit of an industry challenge of, we kind of, we, we, we run away with the tech. We've, you know, as an industry, we've got previous in.

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, it's interesting. I think I, I'm hoping that was change because there are multiple carriers in market now and multiple carriers around the world. I, like, I, I, I feel like there's some point in the future where you sign up for business mobile and it'll be like, oh, which, which UCAS pick the dropdown.

Here you are because the like, it, it, it, I mean it just has to, on some timeline, obviously Cisco have got their proposition. Microsoft have got theirs. Others, others will come, I'm sure. 

Duncan Finlay: Yeah. And I, I think it's really interesting that, that, that you say that because that it's, it's something that's unique about our, um.

Teams phone and teams phone, mobile capability that we're bringing to market. And it's one of the reasons why it's kind of taken us a, a while to, to, to, to build the architecture is we are unique in that we, as part of our architecture, we've partnered up with one of Microsoft's accelerator partners, Pinco, and we've built an automation engine as part of our kind of architecture, which actually when customers sign it, so it's operator connect, all teams phone, mobile, single pane.

Yeah. And it fully automates. Um, the setup macd process, it fully automates all interaction. Yeah, I think I've seen, 

Tom Arbuthnot: uh, we know, we know Dan and the Pinco team. I think I've seen Dan demo this live, live in front of a few hundred people. He is like, watch me provision. TPM, click, click, click. 

Duncan Finlay: Yeah. And it, and, and it's, it, it's, it's one of those that even as a, as a grizzled and jaded old telco veteran, when I, whenever I see it, I kind of go, actually.

Yeah. That's quite cool. And, and what, what's I think is, is, is doubly exciting for about this for us, is, is. As well as the, the capability itself being being unique to us. The important thing for me is that it talks back to that thing that I mentioned earlier about saving cost and saving time and saving energy because it reinforces that message into customers, which is, yes, we've spoken about the legacy tech bit, but also from an operational perspective we can.

Take all of that complexity of set up, use, manage away from you. Yeah. Because of, because of this. So you can just have almost an oversight. And again, you can then reinvest that time and energy back into your business. And then if we kind of extend that further to, um, multiple products and multiple solutions, it could then start to become, well make, this might be the last port you ever make.

Because once you are then into that world, we can then start to offer that to customers to say, well, actually, it doesn't really matter if you've got a mixture of different products or solutions, because we can bring them into our kind of management portal. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yep. 

Duncan Finlay: And you can then. Move and migrate customers around without having to go through this kind of multi-product, multi-platform complexity, which drives so much inertia because customers are looking at it going, this is just gonna be hard to move.

So again, if you can take that away as a barrier, which we genuinely think that our partnership with with Pinco puts us in a great position to be able to do. Um, you know, and, and interestingly when we've been building this out internally. This is another one of those light bulb moments that goes on internally when you're sitting in a, in a meeting with, you know, senior stakeholders and what have you, and you do what, what you said down in the pinko.

Could you go Right. Okay. So from a standing start, tip, tap, tap, Tappy, tappy, tap, right? I'm up and running and, and then it's kind of like a. Oh, well. Okay. That's, oh, okay. You have my attention. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. 

Duncan Finlay: So, you know, with that, that's an area that, you know, we think is, is, is really gonna drive a lot of kind of customer interest because it simplifies the conversation.

Tom Arbuthnot: It's interesting with, uh, I had a recent experience with, um, setting up EIMS for somebody and I was like, like madly impressed with that. I held on for a long time because I switched phones a lot to a physical sim. I'm like, oh, like QR code, sim card. Like that is amazing. 

Duncan Finlay: It is. It's, it's one of those, it is one of those kind of things where you go.

Okay. We, we are, we're on the cusp of something here. And as you kinda said, we we're on the, of moving towards that journey where, where folks kind of go, well, actually in the future, maybe this is how customers are gonna interact in that more digital, um, self-serve way. Yeah. Where the complexity is then taken away from them.

And I think historically in the uc, the uc space would be great to kind of hear, hear your thoughts on it as well. But I think historically in the uc space, that complexity has been one of the biggest challenges. For, for, for customers in terms of really getting to a place where they've got a technology solution that wraps itself around them rather than them having to wrap themselves around whatever the technology does.

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's fair. It's also interesting, the move to cloud has been really interesting because I used to do. Really big global, what was Link and then Skype rollouts where the server architecture and the deployment was six weeks design and 12 months project. And that was the hard bit.

And then we connected Telco, which was hard, but not, not impossible. Gateway is job done flipped on its head. Now the, the UCAS is just credit card deployed and now the hard bit is actually gateways lines, OCDR, telco threads and rules. So it's kind of flipped to where that's the piece. Now that's a little bit harder.

Duncan Finlay: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I think being able to say to customers, you know, we can, we can get you up and running in minutes, not months. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. 

Duncan Finlay: Is, is a, again, it's a very compelling Okay. Tell me more, um, way to kind of start having that conversation. Yeah. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. Well, Duncan, thanks for jumping on the pod.

Appreciate your perspective and your, your views on the world and congrats on, on launching. Uh, maybe we give it a bit of time and then, uh, have some, some experience customer stories in a, in a few months once you've, uh, got a few more customers on board, if that'd be interesting. Yeah, 

Duncan Finlay: sounds sounds great.

No, thank you very much for your time. Great to chat. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. Thanks so much. 

Duncan Finlay: Thanks a lot.