Kathie Anderson: That's set up slightly differently. So they didn't quite need the full contact center environment within that. So they have slightly different licenses, which means that they get the call straight to them, but we're also using it so that their customers can leave specific messages. They will pick that up afterwards because every single one of those calls is extremely precious because it could, it could literally mean the difference between life and death, and I don't want that to sound overdramatic, but you know, that, that, that is the case.

Tom Arbuthnot: Welcome back to the Teams Insider Podcast. You know, we like to get the customer perspective on this podcast. And this week's a really interesting one. We've got Kathie from Derby County Council, and she takes us through their initially Skype for Business journey and then Teams phone journey. Really interesting requirements, not your typical enterprise.

Lots of different requirements around 5, 000 users, many different departments, many different organizations, and lots of use cases helping citizens. We also get into how they've chosen and used Luware's Contact Center to meet some of those contact center requirements, all integrated into Teams. Really interesting conversation.

And also talk to LoopUp who provided all the PSDN connectivity with OperatorConnect. Many thanks to Kathie for taking the time to explain the journey and many thanks to Luware for their support of Empowering.Cloud, hope you enjoy the show. Hi everybody, welcome back to the podcast. Always exciting to get a real world customer perspective on the podcast and quite a lot we spend time talking to enterprise customers.

So it's great to talk to a slightly different customer scenario and an interesting and complex one at that. Multiple guests on this pod, Kathie could I start with you introducing yourself, please? 

Kathie Anderson: Hi, yeah, I'm Kathie Anderson. I work for Derby City Council and I manage the networks and the telecoms teams.

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. Thanks, Kathy. And Karl? 

Karl Smith: Yeah, for sure. Hey guys, I'm, uh, I'm Karl. I am a solution architect at LoopUp. So, uh, yeah, I work with Kathie in, uh, kind of migrating into Teams and all those good things. So I'm sure we'll get into it. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome, and Oli? 

Oli Lifely: Yeah. Hi everyone. Oli Lifely, Head of Sales here at Luware.

Um, so yeah, I worked with Kathie and the Derby team and the LoopUp team, um, in their contact center implementation. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. Thanks. We've got the whole gang here, 

so we're going to get into it. Uh, Kathie, first of all, can you kind of talk us through, uh, like people might not be familiar, we've got a global audience, like what, what, what the City Council do, what it looks like, number of users, because it's quite, uh, quite varied, isn't it?

Kathie Anderson: Yeah, absolutely. So we deliver all local authority services from social services to, uh, Street Cleaning to Customer Service Environment. We've got, um, about 95 different buildings across the whole city of Derby. Um, for the purposes of this conversation, we also include Derby Homes, who are an arm's length housing organization, and we also have a tenanted services offering called Connect Derby.

So yeah, it's a big complex organization with lots and lots of different requirements across lots of different services. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, really, really interesting and varied and lots of people in in field as well as in offices, I would assume. 

Kathie Anderson: Yeah, absolutely. So we've got people who are out every day again from the sort of street cleaning side to people who are out doing parking, parking assessments, etc.

But I'd say obviously that the main focus of the Not the main focus of a local authority, but we have a huge amount of people from a social services point of view who are out and about in the community, working with people directly. They need to be able to contact back to the office very quickly, get hold of applications, be able to communicate really, um, easily with our contact center staff. So the people who might be picking up calls from customers directly, they might will need to be able to contact people directly. So, yeah, we've also got things like the registrar service, which you perhaps don't think of as part of a local authority. But, you know, registering births, deaths, carrying out weddings, you know, I'm trying to think off the top of my head.

There is so much going on in a local authority environment. So, yeah, 

Tom Arbuthnot: it's amazing. What did the Microsoft Teams journey look like for you? Where did you come from? And kind of how do we get here? 

Kathie Anderson: Okay. So, uh, Karl has been on this journey with us, with us all the way, basically. When the, when the lockdown first happened, we were already working with LoopUp and we were at the beginning of looking at how we were scoping out, rolling Skype out to our organization.

Because we're a local authority. I know that feels like it's miles behind everybody else in a sort of Skype type environment, and it absolutely was, but we were right at the beginning of that journey. And then lockdown happened. And I'm talking about Skype just for a minute, because it will lead me on to talking about.

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, it's good to get the background. We want to know how you got there. I'm really interested. 

Kathie Anderson: So, so we had a planned rollout plan for Skype that would take us six months. Um, lockdown happened and we condensed that into six weeks. So, within six weeks, we rolled out Skype to an entire organization, and this was an organization of people that were used to working in buildings.

They were used to working in the council house. We had, um, something like 80 percent capacity full time in the council house at all times. So, that's like our big town hall in the center of Derby, as well as those additional buildings around the whole city. Obviously, all of those people were pretty much immediately all required to work from home.

So a lot of people haven't got laptops. They've been used to working on a desktop situation. We had to roll out laptops. We had to get the entirety of that mobile telephony solution, if you like, out to the organization as quickly as possible. And I'll be honest, it was a challenge. Um, but what? We surprised us, and this is where I'm coming on to talk about the Teams element, is that very quickly, we had an awful lot in those first few weeks of, oh, we can't do it.

It'll never work. And surprisingly enough, we could do it. And it did work. And to be fair, I think that's testament to LoopUp's support within that environment. They really, really helped us understand how we could get that out across all of our organisation as quickly as possible. And the other thing that LoopUp really helped us with was very, very quickly we were being said, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Skype, whatever. What about Teams? What about Teams? So, and that's where we came to our Teams journey. So, although we had really only just pretty much rolled out Skype, we were already looking at, okay, so this isn't, It's great. It does what we need it to for right now, but we need to look at what we're going to need to future proof that.

Um, and that's where we came to our Teams telephony journey. The reason why we involved Luware within that is because we had a very outdated contact center environment as well. So we initially started to talk to LoopUp around what can we do to move to Teams? And that conversation then evolved into what can we do to replace our telephony in its entirety?

Um, and we started to talk to Oli initially. So we started to think about what were requirements. We were previously using Cisco, um, express environment and an enterprise environment, and it was not a great experience. It was really outdated. We've been using it for years. All of our contact center users.

There were lots of things that we needed to do that were much more reactive, and we just weren't able to do that with the Cisco contact center telephony that we had in place. 

Oli Lifely: Um, so how long did you have that environment out of interest? 

Kathie Anderson: About 15 years Oli. So it had been something that we had in various different iterations.

So different versions of that Cisco environment. So, yeah, we were, we were very people were confident and comfortable with it, but it didn't do what we needed to do. So although people were confident and comfortable with it, they weren't Confident with the fact that we couldn't do simple things like change scripting ourselves, you know, so, and again, I think the lockdown environment highlighted to us how much more reactive we needed to be to things.

So there were emergency contact centers set up, for example. And we had to wait for our telephony provider to, we had to ask for a quote for it. We then had to get that signed off. We then had to get them to build it. We then had to test it. You know, 

Tom Arbuthnot: Very very old school, 

traditional. 

Kathie Anderson: Absolutely, Something that took us weeks that now takes us a day.

that we're able to do ourself. So, so, so, yeah, all of, all of, all of that sort of stuff, really. So we, we, we needed the sort of, you know, I guess what everybody would want in a contact center environment, you know, reporting, all of being able to put yourself into not ready with particular codes, make sure that we're really capturing what our customers are contacting us about so that we can use that insight into how we are communicating with customers, making sure that leads forward through to, um, changes that we introduced, that we put on the website for information.

And we'd kind of been doing that bit anyway, but in a very clunky way. Luware has allowed us to really be so much more reactive, um, and get those things that we need in place as quickly as possible. I think the other thing for Luware that's absolutely key for us is how intuitive it is. So the people who actually make the changes, I mean, I never thought I'd be able to say this in my life, but we've actually got, we've got our contact center team leaders being able to make changes to scripting just like that.

You know, that they're not even contacting us to say, can you change this? 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, that's 

amazing, isn't it? 

Kathie Anderson: It really 

is. Yeah. 

Tom Arbuthnot: I come, I've been in this space long enough to be back in the old, uh, UCC, UCCX. It was six weeks for scripting for a contact center project. So to have that level of control and Self Service is pretty revolutionary when you think back.

Kathie Anderson: Absolutely. And I think as well, I think it's really interesting because we came, I think that we have completely changed as an organization and me in particular, I think our outlook on what is possible as part of a contact center, because Oli, I think some of those initial conversations that we had at the beginning, I was quite hesitant and quite sort of like, Oh no, I don't think we can, team leaders are never going to be able to do that.

You know, I'm not sure we're going to be able to train them to do that. You need to understand the level. And Oli was very much sort of saying, do you know what, Kathie I think, I think they probably will, you know, 

Tom Arbuthnot: we're not expecting them to script. Yeah, it's, 

it's, 

Oli Lifely: it's great to, it's great to hear that because obviously we build the technology.

So for customers to be able to do that. But then it still takes the organization to take the plunge there. And actually, I think some of our customers still have that traditional setup where they need to ask IT to do everything because they're still stuck in that old mentality. The technology is there, but you still need to kind of almost be brave and taking that step to say, okay, we'll give you the reins.

If something happens, we'll deal with it. 

Tom Arbuthnot: The cultural change, isn't it, of letting people 

Oli Lifely: And that can only be driven by you guys as the organization. So, 

Kathie Anderson: yeah, I think it's something that we felt quite strongly about because there were, we only as we're local authority, you know, every single local authority in the country has got budget pressures.

We have only got so much that we can do with the time that we've got available. And I am, my team are a team of four people in its entirety. We support the entire of the network for Derby City Council, Derby Homes, Connect Derby. And all of the telephony provision, whether that's Contact Center, Desk Telephony, Teams, you know, Common Area Phones, whatever, there are four people doing that.

If there are ways that we can give, um, empower the team leaders basically and help them to use those tools for themselves and understand that it's not scary. And again, Oli, I'm coming back to you on this one because Loretta, who was involved, Loretta from Luware, who, who helped us do all of the training and set up all of this environment was amazing, basically, she, she really helped us through it.

And she did an awful lot of that. Do you know what, guys, you are going to be able to do this, you know, and it was, it was a bit of a journey for us as well, because I, in particular, and others, we did start off a bit like, okay, you know, I'm really lucky in that one of the members of my team is, is a lady called Flo and Flo is one of those people who will just pick something up and teach herself how to do it.

So Flo and Loretta work really well together on this and another colleague, Gavin, um, that they really did sort of. Pick that up and look at how they could do that for themselves. 

Tom Arbuthnot: That's amazing. And are you running like different contact center scenarios within Luware? So different, 

different services, different groups. How's that work?

Kathie Anderson: Yeah, we are. So, so we have, um, we've got our main contact center, which is called Derby Direct. And then we've got a separate one within Derby Homes. Um, and then we've got other high profile services that use the contact center, um, that use Nimbus. Um, and they all use it slightly differently. So they've all, they're, they're able, we've been able to tailor their requirements to, to what it is that we need.

And we can do that even, you know, going down an extra level by team and by person as well. So we can make sure that we've got different, different ways that calls are recorded by team. We've got different ways that, that calls are offered through. Um, we're also using, and I should probably mention at this point as well, what another thing that's been absolutely fantastic is that we, um, we have a chat bot at the top of our, of all of our, our.

Calls through to the main contact center. So we have a digital assistant called for Derby City Council called Darcy and for Derby Homes called Allie. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. Brilliant. We took us a while to come up with those names. We wanted something that was non gender specific, but didn't, didn't sound Pants, basically.

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. 

Kathie Anderson: So those are the names that we came up with. Um, but so basically Darcy deals with all of those low level queries that really we don't need to put through to a contact center, so, you know, what time can I do this? How do I do that? What happens when those kinds of high level queries and we, we, we work hard to kind of, and that, that will be an evolving piece of work that we're doing there.

But when, when it is suitable for a call to come through to a customer, that the flow of that call and how we've built that works really well. And again, it depends on what the customer wants to how that piece is configured underneath and how that gets to the contact center advisor or to the specific service. So some people who use the contact centre technology only answer calls for their service so the council tax the benefits guys They're very specialist whereas within our Derby Direct our contact center Environment.

They deal with calls from so many different all those services that I mentioned at the beginning of the call, they pretty much take the first line for all of those, including the social services call. So they need to be able to

Oli Lifely: and then when they get those calls. What is provided to them so they know? And so you've got the context there.

How did you, how did you give them the right information? 

Kathie Anderson: So we, so the call comes through to them and they know, they are clear which path the customer has chosen to get through to that call. So they know what the call's about. They're expecting, you know, it's not like they're being, that they're not picking up a call blindly.

Um, it's a 

Tom Arbuthnot: That horrible experience we've all had, we go through an IVR or a voice prompt. We'd say all our issue with them. And it's like, how can I help you? No, no context. 

Kathie Anderson: Precisely. And you feel like you're just like, Oh gosh. So, you know customers, our customers know, well our staff know what it is that the customer is calling about initially. And they will also know that they will have already been through that initial triage, if you like, type call. So they'll be confident of the level that that customer is coming through to them. I just want to mention our out of hours

service really quickly, so we have an 

of hours service for 

Devices linked to Connective 

with Microsoft Teams is currently designed with Microsoft Teams on built in services, but only currently offers a , specific database for a target platform.

Discover what's new on Microsoft Teams and get a click through to specific devices for your product web portal. So it's for emergency social care lines, social care calls, called CareLine. Um, and that's set up slightly differently. So they didn't quite need the full, um, contact center environment within that.

So they have slightly different licenses, which means that they get the call straight to them. Um, but we're also using it so that they can, uh, that their customers can leave, um, specific. Messages. They will pick that up afterwards because every single one of those calls is extremely precious because it could literally mean the difference between life and death.

And I don't want that to sound overdramatic, but that is the case. 

Tom Arbuthnot: No, no, no, that is the kind of thing. 

Kathie Anderson: Yeah. And obviously there are only a limited that there are limited amounts of people who pick up that calls. But what the Contact Center Technology allows them to do is to not miss a single one of those calls. They are able to quickly see what that call was about, quickly see a summary of it, um, and then call that customer straight back or and involve third party organizations and agencies, including police, for example, if they need to.

Tom Arbuthnot: Oli is that your advanced routing? That scenario?. 

Oli Lifely: I think that's the enterprise routing that we set up there. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. It also means that you don't. If you have different people, so obviously with rotas and shifts, um, people are going to be logging in at different times. It's not tied to those users.

You just have the team of users. You have the queue there and people can log in and out, whoever they are, any, any Teams user within the organization. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Kathie you mentioned the importance of like this service, particularly for the citizens. Like I'm guessing going to the cloud and availability. Was that a conversation or was it more like you were going anyway?

I'm thinking strictly kind of. Teams Phone now being five nines and Luware running the cloud service. How much was that part of the conversation? 

Kathie Anderson: It was a part of the conversation, and I am going to do absolutely terribly answering this question because I don't have a technical background. So my colleague Gavin would have been having all of those very technical conversations with Karl and also with somebody else from LoopUp called Cameron.

So Cameron was involved in an awful lot of the setup in the background and how that actually worked. Um, so. Apologies, Tom. I can't fully answer that question for you. Karl, you could probably do better at that than me, to be fair. 

Karl Smith: Yeah, though, it's, it's a, it's a very valid question. And when you have a, uh, a customer that's looking to go to, uh, kind of Teams and have a cloud first strategy, it is a, some, it is a topic which comes up quite a lot.

Um, I think being happy to kind of, Accept that you are going that route in general, like you use different kind of modalities and so different Microsoft products. For example, you use Exchange in the cloud. It's just one of those other things where being able to fully kind of Accept that this is the way it's going you want to you want to utilize your license to the fullest You want to kind of do all these different things that the users want Um I think you are kind of pushed a little bit to do it.

Kathie Anderson: Can I just pick up on something that you've said there, Karl? That's, yeah, what you just said around the licensing there. Yeah, so we had E5 licenses, so we knew that we would have the telephony element within that, and we, it seemed very important to us, and I appreciate what you're asking now, Tom. It kind of felt very important to us to make sure that we are fully, as Karl says, fully utilizing that, that.

That licensing capability that we've got within that. Absolutely. Yeah. So it wasn't just the telephony that was part of that, you know, that there were other things that that E5 licensing environment bought for, bought for us. Um, it just so happened that one of the things that we were looking at replacing the telephony, because we'd got the E5 license there, that helped us along with making that decision really.

Tom Arbuthnot: That makes sense. And Karl, what did it look like from a, uh, uh, Telephony perspective in terms of migration, like OC, DR, MIX, any local gateways, just interested in the kind of the telephony side. 

Karl Smith: Yeah, yeah. So, uh, completely OC, Operator Connect. Um, there obviously was that kind of edge case around providing, uh, PSTN connectivity to the chatbot.

So we had this kind of, um, we had the core kind of, Uh, our back office users, the voice applications, the auto attendance call queues, the Luware services, it's all being delivered by OperatorConnect. So we'd have those numbers, uh, kind of ported, uh, via our number port, number management team. Um, and pre assigned, configured, uh, and ready to go.

Then this, the secondary kind of scenario was, as I say, this, this, this, uh, this chatbot. So, what we had to do there was, um, set up some TLS based sip trunks uh, into a cloud hosted, uh, SBC, which is, uh, not hosted by ourselves or, or Derby, it's actually like a, uh, like a, uh, I think it's Audio Codes Live Hub.

I think that's what it uses.

Oli Lifely: Probably worth mentioning that this is a third party chatbot, not a Luware chatbot, just to clarify.

Karl Smith: And yeah, so we had that set up to deliver that PSTN connectivity from LoopUp to that environment. Uh, which then was able to be utilized as that kind of first port, point of call for any sort of like triaging of calls, as Kathie mentioned.

Uh, so yeah, from, from a telephony point of view, really simple, uh, OC and yeah, sip trunking. 

Kathie Anderson: Karl, is it worth mentioning here the issues that we had with the SBC and the limitations that we had in place beforehand? 'cause if, if you remember, we had some, some real problems before, before we moved over to the Teams telephony with the fact that we, on our SBC that we were using with ano, with another org with another organization.

We had some quite, some, some limitations within that. So we were finding that we were hitting the, the, um. That the volume of calls that we had was restricted. So we were having some customers who weren't able to get through to us. So that was that was another key thing that really made a difference to us.

And we knew that we then with LoopUp managing 

Tom Arbuthnot: Going to that cloud, that cloud scaling model. 

Kathie Anderson: Yes, absolutely. That really made a difference for us. 

Karl Smith: Yeah, we were able to remove that kind of on premises kind of piece of hardware. And the license limitation, uh, I think there was, there was a good few hundred channels licensed on that SBC.

So a lot of, a lot of calls coming in. Um, so being able to move to a kind of multi tenanted kind of cloud based solution with lots and lots of licenses from our perspective. 

Kathie Anderson: Yeah. 

Karl Smith: Um, yeah, enabled that. 

Kathie Anderson: And I think the thing that that solved was we have very, very sharp peaks and troughs sometimes within, within local authority organization.

So for example, and it's not the nicest thing in the world, but when we send out council tax reminders, we send them out in, in, in, in chunks. And that quite, quite, Basically it generates huge volumes, of course. Certain 

times 

of the year 

Tom Arbuthnot: oh, so you can you, you can see, you can 

see this spike. Those things hit and that's really interesting 

Kathie Anderson: Absolutely.

So this is meant that, that we don't have to worry so much about that because there, there are certain patterns that, that there's no choice to sort of have to follow those patterns. But it means that we've got that piece of mind now so that we know that we're not going to be, um, compromising other services.

I think is the key thing there really. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Oh, because you get all the inbound for that scenario.

Kathie Anderson: And there are still people trying to call for other services that that level of calling hasn't changed. But yeah, so that's, that's really helped us out as well. 

Oli Lifely: I think that's probably a nice Segway to, we talked about user experience, admin and ease of admin.

Um, but what has, The kind of reporting given you there. What insights have you been able to make and make those some similar changes that you just mentioned there? 

Kathie Anderson: Absolutely. So the Power BI reporting that we obviously use with the Nimbus. So we get all of that report. It's really given us some fantastic insight into the types of calls that we're getting.

So particularly for those, particularly for services like Care Line for example, so the out of hours service that we wouldn't necessarily have had any volume Real idea of how many calls were coming through to those types of services that we can now that we're now using Nimbus for. So that's been brilliant.

And also, we can see really clearly the usage across all of the different services. So, and the performance of individuals as well, I think, is incredibly important for the managers of those services. Um, so we can see, I mean, again, the reporting is just so, it's just so intuitive. It's just so easy to use.

It's configurable. We can change it dependent on what it is that's important for each service to be able to see. Um, Yeah, I also really love the way that individuals can see their own performance, can see how they're doing very easily and keep a track on that. And they can see the overall team as well within the room.

I mean, I'm I'm veering about here between the Power BI reporting and what you can see within the Nimbus platform when you're logged in. 

Oli Lifely: Yeah, I think that was important for us when designing it. In Teams, everything's quite transparent across the organization, right? I could go on Teams and see if my CEO is available, right?

And that's, that's the nature of Teams. And therefore we didn't want to hide a lot from the, from the end user. Like if I want to go in there and see what my colleague's doing or what my managers, if my manager's available in the queue, there shouldn't be any reason to hide that from, from the end user. So we want to keep that quite, quite visible for the end users themselves.

Kathie Anderson: Oli, that's just reminded me of something else as well. And that's, um, when we were using the Cisco. Contact Center against Skype. It was really, really difficult for the guys in the contact center because they couldn't see, um, because they weren't able to be logged into the contact center and Skype at the same time, so they couldn't see the availability of people that they were trying to transfer calls through to.

Which was, for them, really, really difficult. Using this has completely solved that, so they can see exactly the state that everybody else is in. 

Oli Lifely: And everyone's on Teams, so if they're in a meeting, if they're, you know, on a call, I think that's one of the underappreciated wins you get from moving your contact center to Teams, is that unified presence.

It's so simple, but it is such a big win for contact center staff and the back office. 

Kathie Anderson: Yeah, I'd absolutely agree with that. 

Tom Arbuthnot: And that visibility as well as you deal with, like, we talked about lockdown, we talked about other scenarios offline, like people working from anywhere, people needing to work from different locations, you've still got the visibility between your team and top down as a supervisor as well.

Kathie Anderson: Yeah, I mean, it's meant that the contact center guys, it's completely changed the way that they work, really, for exactly what you took. And yeah, the lockdown contributed towards that. But we did have very much an area in the building that where all the contact center guys sat, and it was always busy. I walk past it now, there's maybe four people there on a daily basis.

So you know, a few more, because it doesn't really, it doesn't matter where they are. So it means that we can, it also means that we can get people out, not just in their homes, working from home, but at other locations where it will be more sensible for them to work, you know, collaboratively with other services, for example.

So they're not tied to just being within that area where they traditionally always sat. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, I heard actually I was speaking to another customer and I had a really interesting conversation that one of the big drivers actually for them was recruitment and being able to recruit different people in different scenarios that could work from home or work from anywhere that they just couldn't do before this technology.

Kathie Anderson: Yeah, and I think that's, that's. Changing, isn't it? I mean, I don't, maybe this is the wrong thing to say, but I don't know about you, but I'm not sure I'd apply for a job that didn't allow me to work from home. 

Tom Arbuthnot: No, I think that's a very common, yeah, I think that's a really common sentiment now is like some kind of hybrid, like in the office sometimes perhaps, but that flexibility is hard to go back, isn't it?

Kathie Anderson: Absolutely. 

Tom Arbuthnot: So, Kathie, you've given us an amazing insight into this whole journey. There'll be other local authorities, councils listening, I'm sure. Kind of, what's your thoughts for them? Because they might not be as, you know, you've gone through the whole journey. 

Kathie Anderson: I think, um, through my entire experience of local authorities, and I've, you know, I've spent time at other local authorities, I work closely with other local authorities, we are sometimes resistant to change.

I want to say sometimes, what I mean is, Always. And I think that's the nature of people. 

Tom Arbuthnot: It's good to be self aware. 

Kathie Anderson: Yeah, exactly. You know, sometimes it's a really difficult thing to, you know, and I'm talking again, going right back to those Skype days where everyone was like, Oh, we'll never work. We need this.

We need that. We need that. And like, well, do you know what, guys, you can have all of that. And what you can have is that Plus an awful lot more. So I would genuinely say to all those other local authorities out there, explore the options because you won't believe how much more efficient, um, available, easy.

There are just so many benefits to the people using it and not just people using it, but managers and the insight that comes out of it, that it genuinely is worth exploring. And just be brave and take that leap. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Amazing, awesome. Well, thanks so much for taking the time out to give us this level of insight.

It's really great to hear, again, your specific scenarios and what a successful journey. Karl, Oli, thanks for jumping on and providing the background as well. Really appreciate that. And, yeah, we'll hopefully, maybe talk to you 

all soon. 

Kathie Anderson: Bye. 

Oli Lifely: Thanks, everyone. 

Karl Smith: Cheers, 

guys.