Ragnar Heil: This is the first time in my, in my whole life that I got a new job, started in a brand new company and using Copilot plus my other changes, there was no AI and no Copilot. So for me, it's a very new experience because I definitely have to ask less. Because I just can search what people are working on and what this abbreviation means and when I want to know something about customers and I have no idea, I just search for customer names and current opportunities and meeting notes.

It is so helpful when you just start a job and you have Copilot in your hands.

Tom Arbuthnot: Welcome back to the Teams Insider Podcast. This week I have fellow MVP and friend, Ragnar. We get into everything around Copilot, Governance and User Adoption. Ragnar's a real expert in this area, so we get into some of the governance challenges. I ask him if AI will ever be able to do the job of configuring governance and managing governance.

Really interesting conversation, hope you enjoy it. Many thanks to Ragnar and also many thanks to Neat who are the sponsor of the podcast. Really appreciate their support of Empowering Cloud. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. Exciting one this week. Uh, Ragnar and I have been going back and forward a bit on, uh, what we're going to talk about here.

And we're going to get into some, some governance, some Copilot. He's one of the people I'll go to when I've got a, uh, a sticky, uh, governance or compliance question. Uh, so Ragnar, why don't you just introduce yourself and, uh, you've recently changed roles. So give us a little bit of context about your, your background and your new role.

Ragnar Heil: Absolutely, more than happy to. First of all, thanks, Tom, for the invitation. Very happy to be part of this wonderful show, which I'm following since years now. Yes, I'm Ragnar Heil, uh, living in the center of Germany, in a very small town between Frankfurt and Hannover. So it's actually the center. And, uh, yeah, I just changed the role.

I worked in the past for Rancor, leading the partner sales team. Now I'm part of Hansa Vision. Which is a legal entity of Bechtle, one of the largest Microsoft partners globally, and my role is here at Business Development Manager, 100 percent focused on Microsoft topics, and of course I can bring all my favorite topics from my last 25 years of industry with me.

So here we have a very, very strong SharePoint. We started in 2001 at Transitional with SharePoint and now everything is so focused here on Copilot, Teams, Power Platform, Employee Experience. So my role is a bit, I'm co leading the Employee Experience Competence Center. On the other hand, I'm driving the new innovation topics, and there is a lot of focus, as you can imagine, on governance, but also on Copilot.

And we have a business unit around Teams Rooms and everything for advanced Microsoft Teams usage, as you may be. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Nice, so you're going wide again, you were super focused, and now you're back to kind of the stack. As you say, Copilot is is the conversation at the moment and Microsoft mentioned it 42 times on the earning call.

So I imagine that's, that's front and center for you. But interestingly, I feel like Copilot's made governance a bit more sexy or at least, at least a conversation. Now, I feel like it was always one of the things that everybody knew they needed to do, but it was always down the project list because it's hard work.

It's, it's, it's, it's complicated. It's important. And it's one of those projects that you can easily kind of string out. Um, is, is that. Is that fair? Have perspectives changed a little bit? 

Ragnar Heil: Yes, you're not, you're not wrong when you say that, that Copilot makes governance sexy because you can literally, literally find the needle in the haystack, which might be super interesting for you, but not designed to be ready for your eyes.

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. Yeah. And it makes it very obvious that, that things are potentially overshared or, you know, that things aren't quite lined up. I've definitely seen in some of the organizations I get to talk to. That they've done their, you know, 300 seats of, of getting their foot in and testing and immediately it's ended up in, Oh, uh, we now need to take internal governance, sharing, labeling a bit more seriously than we have, because as you say, this is, it's not surfacing anything that wasn't The person wasn't allowed to use, but it makes it so easy that it, they're more aware of, uh, you know, things have been overshared internally, for example.

Exactly. 

Ragnar Heil: The interesting thing is that I actually, uh, I worked 11 years for Microsoft in Germany and before I, I joined Microsoft officially. I was part of Fast Search and Transfer, which later was the search engine of Sharepoint. So, so I joined Microsoft by the acquisition of Fast Search. Now they're building all the crazy, fancy stuff around Copilot.

So I see a lot of boomerangs and loops in my whole life and, uh, and the things what we will be currently preaching around checking the permissions on a regular level, like, like, like a monthly review of your SharePoint in Teams, other kind of workspaces, something what we already talked like in 2007. And I've got a video live stream running with Christian Buckley, our VP friend called Guardians of M65 Governance.

And Chris is also in the governance industry since 2001 or three. And so it feels a little bit like you're 

Tom Arbuthnot: talking 

Ragnar Heil: like a broken record because the topics really have not changed. The only difference is that it's so easy and so faster to use Copilot and find this ugly needle in the haystack. And in the old SharePoint search, it was much more complex and you had to paginate through many different pages to find it.

And now it's just one sentence. We say, Hmm, very interesting content. I always wanted to know the salary of Jodo and Jane Doe. Who are we going to acquire next? 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. So I feel like Delve was our dry run on this, but the thing with Delve is it, for those, I'm sure a lot of this community will know this, this conversation, but Delve was a way for kind of SharePoint search.

And Ragnar, keep me honest, you know it better than me, kind of proactively surface things for users. And we went through this where, oh, it's proactively servicing things that we didn't think were shared. A bunch of people just turned Delve off and that was their problem solving. Nobody's going to turn AI off.

Like I feel like it's absolutely agreed that on some timeline, it's inevitable that we're all going to be using it in some shape or form. So there's no turning it off really. I mean, technically you can obviously, but practically as an organization, you're going to be hamstringing yourself if you're saying we're not using AI.

So, so we have to now get governance labels, sensitivity, right? 

Ragnar Heil: Yeah, absolutely. So that's the question what I would always ask in my customer workshops. How did you treat? How do you handle and manage Delve? If they say, no, no, listen, we never used it. It's completely out of scope. We have locked everything down.

Then maybe it's not the right time for to introduce Copilot because technically, Yeah, absolutely. It's very, very the same kind of cultural thing. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. 

Ragnar Heil: And this is a very interesting point because we easily talk about company culture. There is the, there are company cultures where there is sharing by default.

So only the secret things should be locked and hidden and be part of private teams and private channels and so on. And, and. But other company cultures have cultures where they say, no, no, listen, everything is locked and closed by default. And I'm not saying that black or white is the right thing, open by default or locked, closed by default.

But you need to make sure that you're not only talking about the technical introduction of Copilot by buying a license and assigning it to users. but to make sure that the culture is ready because it can be explosive when people see things or they usually don't have on a deck on the desk that can be explosive.

So you need to make sure that that you have a nice balance of toolset, mindset, and skillset and not only just introducing a new tool because otherwise you would overwhelm the company culture who is not ready for this kind of transparency. And then the whole corporate project would literally run against the wall and crash and it would be damaged.

Tom Arbuthnot: I love that toolset mindset skillset. That's a really great way to think about it. And I have. I've seen, I've seen successful Copilot products and I've seen less successful ones and there's definitely been some of, we've bought our license, we've sprayed them out there at whoever put their hand up and yes, they're using Meeting Recap and Meet, that, that thing that is a slam dunk because everybody gets it.

It's one button. It's proactive. Um, but some, some of the other things are certainly on the skillset front. It is, it's kind of ironic that we're both pitching Copilot and AI is the thing that can be super helpful to save you time. And in the same sentence, we're like, but you need to learn how to drive it.

Do you see the same thing? 

Ragnar Heil: Yeah, yeah, I see it all the time. So I just left a meeting where we had this discussion. Okay, should we should we just start and record it and just be should we start and transcribe it? Oh, no, no, let's spend the first 10 minutes on the interesting stuff and can we keep it off the record? And when we finish the interesting conversation, then we go and record it.

So this is daily stuff. And, uh, yeah, therefore we, I'm so enthusiastic about always making sure that, that my change management and adoption team is going to be added to Copilot projects. Because, because you, you need to go through this cultural transformation. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. 

Ragnar Heil: Otherwise you, you, you use it wrong and then you run into this.

Security and Compliance and Governance issues, which can be very, very hard, especially around GDP, are penalties and or you just lock everything down and then you get too less value, then you get too less value. So that's something what we want to prevent. Make sure that we are compliant. Many of our customers are in regulated industries, especially like banking and finance and also others like, um, like defense and also, uh, public sector, they are regulated, but we also want to make sure that they get the most value.

And we're very excited about the amount of workshops which we get from Microsoft, which we can give to our customers of great value, discovery workshops focused on roles and getting the most ROI out of it. But if you want to have a serious conversation about ROI, then you cannot limit it too much down because then that's just too less value.

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. You've, you've broken some of the key functionality. So it's a very 

Ragnar Heil: nice balance between security governance, and Compliance and it should go hand in hand, but therefore we also need to work on the mindset that governance is a value because usually, um, customers have no idea what, what governance is. So I first have to introduce them what the idea about governance, and they usually talk as German, I talk about highways and cars, and then we say, listen, if it's a, if it's a day in winter and the, and the roads are full of ice and snow, Yes, may, maybe you have a license.

You are allowed to, to drive as fast as you can. Maybe there is no sign. Um, maybe, maybe your car also can drive two 50 kilometers power, but here you should only drive 50 because it's full of snow or maybe only 30 and don't care. And don't say, no, no, this there is no sign. And my car is past and. This is the way how you should behave on a snowy icy street.

Tom Arbuthnot: I like that analogy. That's a good 

Ragnar Heil: one. I know science. So it's all about safety. It's, it's, so for me, the, the, the biggest value is that everybody is willing to share content on a, on a modern workplace is using it every day, getting the maximum out of the license, increasing productivity, but it needs to be a safe space.

And to have this kind of, of psychological safety at the work space, people need to be confident what they can share. And that's the reason why I'm so passionate about governance, because if you, if you don't talk about this left and right rails, which you have here on a highway, then people are not sharing enough and everything is locked on private one drives.

And, and we are back in knowledge management. in the early nineties. We haven't made any kind of progress regarding knowledge management. And I'm a part of Germany's society of knowledge management. So I'm, um, enthusiastic about sharing knowledge, but it needs to be shared within borders. Otherwise it can be risky.

Tom Arbuthnot: That's awesome. 

Ragnar Heil: So this is the, the conflict and the challenge, what I'm carrying that I love knowledge sharing. But it needs to be controlled clearly, otherwise you share too much or share too less. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. So if someone's listening in, there's a lot of the Teams kind of focus people in this community.

They might not be as up to speed on the compliance governance security story. Um, if I'm an E5 customer, do I have Everything I need in the box to do a good job. Are there any add on licenses? If I'm going down the Copilot road, obviously Copilot is an add on. But should I, should I be considering other, other licenses to do a good job on security compliance governance?

Or do I have what's in the box in E5? 

Ragnar Heil: I think when you have an E5 license and you go into PureView, this is the way, uh, how we can, how we can easily start. Uh, my main recommendation is always to, to use the PureView labels. As European, uh, I'm interested in it being GDPR compliant. So you need to have rules around when do you archive and when do you, uh, Delete, because otherwise, if you never delete and you never archive and you, and you never, uh, then you have just a massive amount of content, which is duplicate.

And it's not only that, that Copilot is finding things the Copilot should not find for you. It's also about duplicate things, which are completely outdated. So we also need a conversation about how to keep content fresh. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yep. 

Ragnar Heil: The, you know, that we, that we don't have 30 versions of this, of this PowerPoint slide.

Running around. Flying around because we wanna make sure it's stored in one place and it's always fresh. 'cause otherwise you get wrong results. Usually people call it hallucination, but it's actually outdated content and that's gonna be one of the biggest problem. So it's not only this security and.

permission thing, which usually, uh, appears when we design as consultants, we design nice permission, uh, um, permission matrix and permission specifications. And then people click on share, share, share. And then all the concepts are completely, um, wasteless, uh, completely useless because everything has changed.

It's not only about the permission part. It's also about the content freshness. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, that's a good, that's another good point. Yeah, there's a motivation there, which is not just, It's the right thing to do and it's GDPR. It's like, Oh, okay, my employee productivity is going to be impacted if I'm feeding them old data.

Ragnar Heil: People really, really hate it to, to, to get wrong answers. They don't like to have hallucinations, but sometimes they don't see that. that is, um, hallucinating. If you go to chatGPT and you would enter your name and there would be a wrong answer, you would immediately know, no, no, this is wrong, Tom. That's not me.

But when, when, when we use Copilot and talk about PowerPoint and Word, sometimes it's not so easy to find out if this is from version 38 or from version 61. It's not so easy to find out. And that's the reason why we have to, to care, to take care more about the cultural topic that we don't have 30 versions of this Word document or slides flying around, but also making sure that we have an archiving and deletion process because the users are hunters and collectors.

That's what they do since they work in offices. And here we need PureView and the Compliance Center to help here because users are overwhelmed by flagging and tagging these documents and saying, These documents should be, um, archived for half a year, or for 3, 6, 9 years, and this should be deleted after 12 years they're overwhelmed.

And that's exactly the part where PureView can help because it reads out your country, your industry, what your regulators expect from you. And this is read out, and then they know, okay, if it's a document with a job submission and the person didn't get the job deleted after half a year, if the person got the job, then you have to save it for, you know, six or nine years.

Yeah. These kind of rules are super helpful. And here you need PureView. There is nothing, there's, there's no chance to get it solved, um, without the E5 Suite and this kind of bundles and add ons. Yeah. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Awesome. But if you're, if you're going down the Copilot route, I think more often than not, you're invested in the Microsoft journey.

You've got E5. So it's more about enabling those technologies than it is adding SKUs. Exactly. 

Ragnar Heil: Because a lot of customers are thinking about using it, but then they say, well, we couldn't introduce it, but we haven't heard a lot about GDPR penalties. So why should we spend the extra effort and buy it and enable it?

Only the large ones. Large American ones are going to get large penalties around GDPR, but we will not face them. But now for Copilot, this is the perfect time and I strongly recommend not to start immediately with enabling the Copilot licenses, but just, but really start with PureView labels to archive and delete because the tenant gets dirty and cluttered every time.

So when you introduce Teams, let's say 12, 15 months later, it's going to be cluttered. Unused Teams, Unused SharePoint Sites, Duplicates. And then also the adoption goes down because people think, Oh, I'm a part of five marketing teams. I don't know where to search. I don't know where to post. So I'd rather go back and fall into my old patterns.

Yeah. Write an email with an attachment because they don't know. Or chat groups of teams. I see loads of posts, 

Tom Arbuthnot: like, like you said, that's what we wanna to There's five. Yeah, there's five teams called something, something marketing. And actually exactly. They don't use any of the five. They use chat. They're like, I'm gonna pull together in a teams chat the people, and have the conversation there.

It's like, oh, chat 

Ragnar Heil: is crazy. It hurts me. But it's just been, but you can 

Tom Arbuthnot: see why people land there, right? It's path of least resistance. Mm-Hmm. . And actually some of the stuff that's coming on the Teams roadmap around how channels behave and how chat behave. Um, there's a lot of controversy there, but I feel like it's a really big step forward in usability because it brings channels to the fore and you're training people to use channels, which I'm really excited about.

We're 

Ragnar Heil: looking forward to, to the, to the, this kind of, yeah. because currently, um, channels, uh, sorry, uh, chats are from the knowledge management philosophical aspect, just a nightmare. There's so much knowledge just lost in chats because you're not a part of it. And I just started this new job a few weeks ago.

And, uh, I, I can only read the content, which is in official channels. That's something where I can read what happened the last years. It's very helpful, but the chats where I'm not involved in, I have zero. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. 

Ragnar Heil: Zero Insights and also Copilot wouldn't help me. 

Tom Arbuthnot: No, because you weren't a member, so you weren't allowed to look at that, whereas if you join in the org and you're allowed those channels, your Copilot permissions are allowed to see that data.

So actually you can get up to speed even faster because your Copilot correctly has access to the right things you should know about. 

Ragnar Heil: And Copilot is helping me so much. You know, this is the first time in my whole life that I got a new job, started in a brand new company and using Copilot 

Tom Arbuthnot: because of 

Ragnar Heil: my other changes.

There was no, there was no AI and no Copilot. So for me, it's a very new experience because I definitely have to ask less because I just can search what people are working on and what this abbreviation means and when I want to know something about customers and I have no idea, I just search for customer names and current Um, Opportunities and Meeting notes.

It is so helpful when you just start a job and you have Copilot in your hands. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, that's an incredible, that's an incredible use case. 

Ragnar Heil: Chats are the enemies, if you're not part of it. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, I feel like there's a, as we're talking here, I feel like there's a really good blog post in like, we all know governance and compliance is important.

But here are the five usability reasons why it's important. This thing about old data, new employee. Like I totally imagine now if I go in some of the orgs that are using Copilot and put in what's the company's mission, it's absolutely going to pull out a PowerPoint from three years ago where the mission was different because like you say, there'll be, there'll be 17 versions of that.

Mission statement over the course of the company's life cycle. So, exactly. So here, here's one for you. Right. So we're, we're out here. Microsoft is saying AI's amazing, it can do all these things. Is AI helping us understand what data is already in the tenant? What is overshared? What should be labeled? It feels like an interesting use case for Copilot to help you with the governance potentially.

Ragnar Heil: Yeah, well, you've got, uh, you know, my, um, background here also working at Ranker, which is an ISV uh, for, um, governance tools. And I always Created a different kind of custom reports where I was searching for for files which had file names which contain things like confidential, very confidential, but also inside there were there were text about confidentiality about confidentiality.

So I was searching for this kind of file names and then looked, okay, where is no label attached. I said listen, this can't be true because this looks from all kind of filenames, metadata and also from the content inside of the document. It looks like a confidential document, but it's not labeled. So that's something where I use governance tools to find these kind of documents.

They need to be relabeled because there are the wrong labels or there is no label. That's something what I, what I scanned. I also scanned, uh, the, the, the growth of labels. Sometimes customers have, have too many labels and then it's going to be too complex and not used. Sometimes they have too less labels.

So I'm also monitoring with this governance tools, the, the growth of labels and otherwise. They are introducing too many labels and then that's, yeah, it's not clear what they have to do. That's something what I would have always used. And then, of course, monitoring cost. And, and because I want to make sure that my customers always get the maximum out of the licenses.

And it can be easily, it can easily be that you start with a global end user or Copilot introduction workshop, but then after four, eight, 12 weeks, they're losing interest because maybe they just started prompting and they're disappointed. Disappointed by creating PowerPoint slides. That's usual common way of being disappointed with a Copilot.

Tom Arbuthnot: I remember what webinar you did where you started doing, you were talking about generating PowerPoint slides and it was, yeah, I've tried as well. It's not, it's not where the marketing is yet. It'll get there, but it's definitely not there yet. 

Ragnar Heil: But it works. It works when you, when, when you know the right approach and then, and then from the Word document, if you like the quality of the Word document, then go to PowerPoint and then, and then, yeah, just.

It's 

Tom Arbuthnot: just, it's just, it's funny where we are in the AI space though, isn't it? It's like, it works if you stand on one leg and do this thing and this thing is amazing. It's like, I thought the AI was clever. It is clever, but it needs a lot of like, uh, structure to be clever. There are 

Ragnar Heil: many, many, um, yeah, limitations.

Also the, the public Bing search is not there. So I heard a rumor yesterday that, uh, that it's going to be rolled out soon for Word. So Word is getting a Bing search plugin so it can search real life internet data. Hopefully this is going to be also be part of PowerPoint because currently you need to go to office.

com and then go to Copilot and then enable the Bing web search plugin and you get real life data. but that was never working in Word, Excel, and PowerPoint because it was always the, I don't know, November 2021 kind of data from ChatGPT 3. 5, but now it's, it's, um, getting better because Word and PowerPoint are getting this plugins.

Tom Arbuthnot: Oh, that's a good tip. 

Ragnar Heil: We always get more value. I'm super excited about the, the, the, Development. Every three, four days, I see a lot of progress, but we need to make sure that the customer also is going to be resilient, patient, and we have to be closer to the customer. Otherwise, we just start something, they're disappointed, and they want to stop it.

And that's my goal to be closer to the customer, understands their needs, because then we can follow up with more workshops, advanced workshops, advanced prompting or explain the updates and listen to their disappointments. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, it's not, it's not a one and done is it?

It's not turn it on and forget it. It is a, an ongoing adoption coaching. They often 

Ragnar Heil: see that customers want Copilot, they want to evaluate Copilot, but only reserve the budget for the licenses. But they completely underestimate the budget, which is needed for adoption change mostly. I see. I see exactly 

Tom Arbuthnot: the same thing completely under estimated and I can, I can see why, because it's a substantial investment.

So people are like, oh, it's 30 bucks a user a a month. I'm buying multiple users. There's a lot of money here also. It's a real tough, uh, tough one to pitch to the CFO, which is you're simultaneously saying. This is awesome. It's going to make you super productive and you need a multi week adoption project to get people to use it.

It's like, well, if it's amazing, why do I need to train them? But you're absolutely right though. It's to get the most out of it. And you can see it in the customer examples of people that are doing well with it, have a full time lead on the project. They have, um, working groups. The other thing I've seen work super well is deploying it to groups of people who work together.

So they kind of self coach. Like if you splatter it over the entire org, you might get some individuals who are super proactive, but typically they're back to their work habits. Where if you say this, uh, all of marketing get Copilot, all of Project X get Copilot, and kind of like we do with, um, project management, have someone who's like a champion for that project to be like showing their peers, where do we get value?

But this all requires thought and user adoption, it doesn't just happen

Ragnar Heil: And I believe also that the topic of employee experience is getting more important than ever, because with the introduction of Copilot, the interest or the attention of Viva went down, but I'm still part and very, very credit part of the Viva Explorers MVP group. And I think that Viva is going to be rebooted now because we see that it's so important that first of all, My own learning skills around prompting and large language models.

I can use Viva Learning. I can share my experiences with prompting in Viva Engage groups and communities, but I can also use Viva Insights for the Copilot adoption. Um, Workshops. So for example, when my, when my change management team here goes with customer and does change management workshops, they always talk about KPIs, how to define goals and what do we need to achieve.

And this kind of goals can be, um, can be written down in Power BI reports and then also imported into Viva Insights currently in private preview. But this is, uh, something where Viva Insights is going to reinvent itself because in the past it was always this little thing about focus time and some nice smileys.

It was, it was not, not really so much valuable. That was the big monster called WorkBase Analytics, which was very, very difficult to introduce. But now we see Viva Insights getting kind of reboot by being the number one Copilot dashboard. With out of the box dashboards coming from Microsoft, but also your custom dashboards, which are just a result, a deliverable coming from your change management workshops, even Power BI embedded into Viva Insights.

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah, I've always been a big proponent of enterprise social tools and Yammer back in the day, particularly in big orgs, like there's just a real good use case for it. I love it. I feel like Um, I mean, I'm excited that Microsoft absolutely want to land Copilot and AI, Viva feels like a good tool set to help that happen.

So I'm sure Viva will continue to get investment as a tool. As you say, Viva Engage, what a great platform to build your Copilot community around, your internal Copilot community around. Um, there's definitely an interesting use case there. 

Ragnar Heil: I was the most active user. Uh, at Microsoft Germany when I worked there in Yammer and now I'm missing Yammer.

We have Yammer in our company, so that's amazing. But every single day I see, ah, now I'm in this team and, uh, and I cannot reach these two or three people. Then I just have to screenshot things and, and, and paste the screenshot into, uh, into a chat and think, ah, this is so ugly. It feels so ugly to, to just paste screenshots because you cannot, mention people because they are just not part of this private team.

Yeah. I don't know. Do you remember the, uh, I love Teams so much. Don't get me wrong. I love Teams so much. Yeah, me too. Like I'm a Teams, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I live and, and I live and die in Teams, but, uh, this, it's too close. So, so this whole concept of having this private Teams where I cannot mention people is a differentiator to Viva Engage before they get it.

But obviously obviously 

Tom Arbuthnot: Viva Engage is now pretty much embedded into Teams as well. So you haven't got the same level of context switching, which you had before. It was a tough pitch, particularly in not massive orgs. In massive orgs, it was really easy, right? You've got 60,000, 100,000 people. You absolutely need a different tool to address the entire community.

When you're in multi thousand user orgs, it's tough because you're like two different products. They both look, they have a, they have a box, they have replies, like it was tough. I don't know whether you remember, like Microsoft used to have the virtual TSP program and we had BDash accounts and that was like my, yeah, that was like my secret weapon for years.

Yeah, that 

Ragnar Heil: was, yeah. That was crazy. Yeah. Where the P-Sellers could, a, could could access Yammer. Yeah. And they had, and they had the full ocean of knowledge. It was, it was amazing. I 

Tom Arbuthnot: met so many people. It was crazy through Microsoft's Yammer, because I could ask questions. Oh God, this was massive amount of sauce.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I was really excited. And sales people, they 

Ragnar Heil: like, they, they just loved it. Because the account team always shared knowledge about the customers. Yeah. The P-Sellers were always silent lurking and getting so many leads from it. 

Tom Arbuthnot: I was super active on it. I was like, I'll just ask a question to anybody inside of Microsoft.

But you'd get engagement from product group, from everybody because. Yeah, but that was a, that was a good example. Obviously tricky these days. 

Ragnar Heil: This sounds like from a completely different time. Yeah, I mean, it was, it was pre, pre all the GDPR fun that 

Tom Arbuthnot: has kind of locked that down for good reason, obviously. But, um, it's a good example of enterprise social bringing, bringing people together.

Awesome. It, it, 

Ragnar Heil: it was locked down at the moment when they, when they shared really a target account, uh, extra sheets. 

Tom Arbuthnot: Yeah. 

Ragnar Heil: Yeah. Yeah. And then everybody knows, Oh, there are the latest hottest target account extra sheets. And then everything was shut down. 

Tom Arbuthnot: I'm sure there's a very, very good reasons why it was, uh, why it was locked off, but it was fun times.

Awesome. Ragnar, thanks for taking time to share your perspective. Excited for you and the new role. And, uh, yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll definitely pull you back in in the future to talk more about, uh, the Copilot and, and Governance and Adoption because it's such a hot topic. 

Ragnar Heil: Thanks for having me, Tom.